Shiny Epi People

Matt Fox, DSc (part 2) on kindness follow-up and Pop Tarts

September 29, 2020 Lisa Bodnar Season 1 Episode 9
Shiny Epi People
Matt Fox, DSc (part 2) on kindness follow-up and Pop Tarts
Show Notes Transcript

Because the world is a dark place, Matt Fox, DSc and I throw our dorky headphones back on and talk about silly stuff. We also discuss a question we got from episode 107 on kindness.

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Lisa Bodnar:

I was having issues where the audio was getting really mumbled, distorted and mumbly like... No muffled and they told me that I should turn off the echo cancellation that you only leave it on when people aren't using headphones.

                

Matt Fox:

Okay.

Lisa Bodnar:

There You go.

Matt Fox:

My... Just so you know, my internet is not great and sometimes it has issues.

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay, what I've learned is that your internet going in and out actually has no impact on your audio. Did you know that?

Matt Fox:

Right?

Lisa Bodnar:

I didn't know that.

Matt Fox:

I did.

Lisa Bodnar:

You're so podcast advanced.

Matt Fox:

Well, I don't want to brag, but I'm kind of a big deal.

Lisa Bodnar:

Well, I got to tell you're the first and only to appear on my show, twice.

Matt Fox:

Am I, does that make me a friend of the pod?

Lisa Bodnar:

It does, or it makes you annoying.

Matt Fox:

Yeah, no, I'll take either, what do I care?

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay, or it makes people go, "That guy again?"

Matt Fox:

Yeah, [inaudible 00:01:24] I believe me, that is kind of my goal.

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay, good. We hope that people hear that it's Matt Fox and then they're like, "I'm not going to download that."

Matt Fox:

Yeah, I'm done. I'm done with that because...

Lisa Bodnar:

Your episode has been downloaded 400 times already, so,

Matt Fox:

Awesome.

Lisa Bodnar:

Awesome.

Matt Fox:

And I just want you to know only 300 of those were me.

Lisa Bodnar:

And I was the other 50.

Matt Fox:

Uh-huh (affirmative)

Lisa Bodnar:

Hey, editorial note, by the time this episode comes out, Matt's first podcast episode has been downloaded, close to 900 times. So, thanks to all of you. 

It is true that every time I listened to it, straight from the website, it counts as a download.

Matt Fox:

I know, believe me. I have several devices that download my podcast that I just... I watch it download and then I delete it

Lisa Bodnar:

Just to make you... So you know that it's rigging the system and yet you do it anyway.

Matt Fox:

I don't care, I can forget that and it makes my ego just...

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay, well then please do it for my podcast too.

Matt Fox:

Will do. I did not listen... I downloaded the last episode that I was on and I did not listen to it.

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay, do we want to be funny first and get our sillies out.

Matt Fox:

Get our silly on?

Lisa Bodnar:

Let's do that, I need some laughter.

Matt Fox:

Let's do it.

Lisa Bodnar:

All right, let's do that first.

                Hi, Matt welcome.

Matt Fox:

How you doing, good to be here.

Lisa Bodnar:

We should tell the listeners why we decided to do this. Do you remember why?

Matt Fox:

I remember everything that you say. So obviously I remember, but I just really prefer, you told people.

Lisa Bodnar:

We decided to do it because the world is falling apart.

Matt Fox:

Oh, yeah.

Lisa Bodnar:

And we felt putting something out there that was like pure light goofiness would be something people would enjoy listening to. 

I just came back from going grocery shopping and I bought coconut cashews. It is one of my favorite things to eat, it's like fatty and salty and sweet.

Matt Fox:

Sounds like a good idea-

But I'm not sure that in the execution, I would definitely enjoy this as much as you do.

Lisa Bodnar:

Listen, it's delicious and if you add chocolate to it's even better.

Matt Fox:

Well, I am a strong believer in the theory that there is no food that cannot be improved with either chocolate or bacon, I dare you to name it.

Lisa Bodnar:

Either or, I was going to say fish, chocolate, fish. No.

Matt Fox:

No, bacon.

Lisa Bodnar:

Bacon, fish.

Matt Fox:

Yep.

Lisa Bodnar:

So, anyway, I've got these coconut cashews.

 

Matt Fox:

We're still on the coconut cashews.

 

Lisa Bodnar:

It reminded me of our conversation about where we hide food from our kids.

Matt Fox:

Yep.

Lisa Bodnar:

Because, I have to hide this food from myself. I know where it is, but I put it on the highest shelf I can.

Matt Fox:

Oh, my goodness.

Lisa Bodnar:

Because, it is going to... I need it to take me a lot of effort to get it out.

Matt Fox:

That is pretty smart, that's pretty well done.

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah.

Matt Fox:

So, you tweeted out that-

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah.

Matt Fox:

We talked about this in the episode and then like five minutes later, I get a text from my daughter who says, "Well, guess I have to listen."

Lisa Bodnar:

No way, I totally gave it away. Oh my gosh, Matt.

Matt Fox:

You totally did.

Lisa Bodnar:

But you don't even-

Matt Fox:

Yeah.

Lisa Bodnar:

Hide candy anymore, yours is cookies yours is just a pandemic specific.

Matt Fox:

Mine is pretty much over.

Lisa Bodnar:

Mine is definitely not and I also try to put it like in a crinkly bag, so that its-

Matt Fox:

So, you get caught?

Lisa Bodnar:

Yes.

Matt Fox:

You're like the kid who tries to make a trap with... by putting a bucket of water over the doorway. Nice.

Lisa Bodnar:

I should do that-

Matt Fox:

Only-

Lisa Bodnar:

That would actually be much more effective, anyway.

Matt Fox:

Wow.

Lisa Bodnar:

If you could bring one fictional character to life, who would it be?

Matt Fox:

Austin Powers would definitely be on my list.

Lisa Bodnar:

What? No, that would be horrible.

Matt Fox:

Why?

Lisa Bodnar:

Because all the yeah, baby, yeah.

Matt Fox:

Exactly, you get it. I think probably though I would go with Chewbacca.

Lisa Bodnar:

What's that about?

Matt Fox:

First of all, can you speak Wookie?

Lisa Bodnar:

I cannot.

Matt Fox:

I feel like it would be a fun language to learn.

Lisa Bodnar:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matt Fox:

Plus I do want to know, I want to know what he's like when he's not on camera.

Lisa Bodnar:

I imagine he's a little smelly.

Matt Fox:

When he wakes up in the morning he wouldn't have bedhead, he would have bed-

Lisa Bodnar:

Body?

Matt Fox:

Body? I don't know what you call that.

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah.

Matt Fox:

But... I bet he doesn't look well-groomed when he wakes up in the morning.

Lisa Bodnar:

I would want Leslie Knope from Parks and Rec-

Matt Fox:

Really?

Lisa Bodnar:

To come to life, I want to be best friends with her. I want to be Ann-

Matt Fox:

And not the Rob Lowe guy? “Ann Perkins”.

Lisa Bodnar:

You remember when he looks in the mirror and he goes, "Stop pooping!” He has the flu. Remember he's at the hospital to stop pooping. 

Speaking of pooping.

Matt Fox:

Oh, obviously.

Lisa Bodnar:

I have a question that I'm going to ask you...

Matt Fox:

Oh, I'm worried about where this is going.

Lisa Bodnar:

I'm not sure you're going to answer it.

Matt Fox:

Okay.

Lisa Bodnar:

So if you don't want to answer it, I understand and just say pass.

Matt Fox:

Okay, pass.

Lisa Bodnar:

Do you have a favorite, random food combination?

Matt Fox:

Okay, no, I do not, but I will tell you this. Last time I was on air, I told you that I was in the Peace Corps and I lived with the family. My parents would occasionally send me packages of food and they tried to find things that... because it took the mail took forever to get there and so, one time they sent me Parmesan cheese. I don't know why, but this is the powdered whatever and I get up the next morning and my host mother was eating what I will call Kiwi jam. It's not quite Kiwi, it's a different fruit, they don't have Kiwi [inaudible 00:08:12] but Kiwi jam and Parmesan cheese by the spoonful.

Lisa Bodnar:

Wow.

Matt Fox:

And she was, "yeah, I thought it was weird too, but it works." You know what else happened? So, my mother would send me packages of things and... But she would try and make them as small as possible because it was really expensive and sometimes she would buy food, again food that would last, but you would take it out of the packaging to make it smaller.

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah?

Matt Fox:

One point I get a package in the mail in which it looks to me, what I can only imagine a bag of cocaine would look like. I have no what this is and I we didn't... We couldn't talk very often because... Eventually I asked her and she knows months later now, she's like, "Oh I don't know what that would be," months later she finally remembers. It was a bag of instant mashed potatoes, which if you think about it does not look like a bag of cocaine. I don't know what happened in the interim.

Lisa Bodnar:

Maybe someone switched it out.

Matt Fox:

Maybe?

Lisa Bodnar:

You didn't snort it?

Matt Fox:

No, I imagine that's fun for some people, not for me.

                

Lisa Bodnar:

Tell me about a job you had as a teenager or in college.

Matt Fox:

I was a... I worked in a hardware store and then I was a summer camp counselor and I would say I was probably a better summer camp counselor than I was a hardware store attendant. I didn't know the first thing about hardware or what do you call the stuff that's not hardware? It's not software.

Lisa Bodnar:

Like lumber?

Matt Fox:

You can see how good I was at this job.

Lisa Bodnar:

When I was a junior and a senior in high school, I worked at the sporting goods store and I really knew nothing about Sporting Goods and I hated every second of it and I had to pretend I understood why you would choose this tennis racket over that tennis racket. I would always be, "How about I bring Jim over here? He can help you." They would have me at the tennis shoes, and they were like if people come in like, "I pronate when I walk and what shoe will be good for that?" And I was, "Fuck if I know." I hated it, it gave me so much anxiety.

Matt Fox:

Isn't the answer though, to why you would ever want one piece of sporting equipment over another. Isn't the answer always torque. You just... This one has this one has more torque, higher viscosity in this one. Yeah.

Lisa Bodnar:

Viscosity, this one is more turgid. Would you rather be Batman or Spider-man?

Matt Fox:

I get why is that even a question who would want to be Spider-man?

Lisa Bodnar:

I would want to be Spider-man.

Matt Fox:

Spider-man does whatever a spider can. What can a spider do?

Lisa Bodnar:

I just liked the idea of swinging.

Matt Fox:

No, Batman is Batman. Batman is the coolest there's no... There's not even a contest there. Would you rather be Spider-Man or Aquaman?

Lisa Bodnar:

I don't know who Aquaman is but-

Matt Fox:

Now you're just embarrassing yourself.

Lisa Bodnar:

I'll also say that I watched the entire season of what the Watchmen.

Matt Fox:

[inaudible 00:12:07].

Lisa Bodnar:

And I had no idea what was going on, people kept saying, you're going to get it, it'll all come together and-

Matt Fox:

It didn't.

Lisa Bodnar:

It didn't for me, I was just, I don't know, that was like 11 hours that I just wasted.

Lisa Bodnar:

What's a question you would like to answer, but no one asks you?

 

Matt Fox:

I would like people to ask me if I've ever been able to announce the Blue Light Special at Kmart, because I have.

Lisa Bodnar:

Really? Kmart doesn't exist.

Matt Fox:

It doesn't exist now. In college, I won a trivia contest and that was the prize was, I got to announce the Blue Light Special at Kmart. There was a Blue Light Special in the hosiery department, which was a fun thing to say two for one.

Lisa Bodnar:

Really?

Matt Fox:

I'm guessing most people listening to this don't even know what a Blue Light Special is.

Lisa Bodnar:

No, and hosiery is also a thing that probably people don't know.

Matt Fox:

I'm not sure I know what hosiery is but I think it's-

Lisa Bodnar:

Right? Exactly, I was going to say you probably don't.

Matt Fox:

Socks? Maybe? Socks?

Lisa Bodnar:

It's stock, pantyhose-

Matt Fox:

Pantyhose?

Lisa Bodnar:

Stockings, hose...

Matt Fox:

I hate that word.

Lisa Bodnar:

I know pantyhose.

Matt Fox:

It's terrible word.

                

Lisa Bodnar:

In 40 years, what do you think people will be nostalgic for?

Matt Fox:

For the postal service? No, in 40 years people are going to be nostalgic for duck face.

Lisa Bodnar:

You think?

Matt Fox:

Yeah, absolutely, hold on.

Lisa Bodnar:

That's a terrible, first of all, turn to the side. I don't know why your lips look like that I don't think that's right. You’ve got to purse them.

Matt Fox:

I know that is the... whenever my kids would do duck face that's what I would do and ruin their pictures. Would you rather live at an amusement park or a trampoline park?

Lisa Bodnar:

Oh, amusement park 100%.

Matt Fox:

Why? because trampoline parks are pretty fun too.

Lisa Bodnar:

No, trampoline parks are no fun.

Matt Fox:

What?

Lisa Bodnar:

It's too crowded.

Matt Fox:

No, but you would live there, you would own it, you could be the only person there.

Lisa Bodnar:

I would rather just ride roller coasters all day.

Matt Fox:

No, I'm with you on that, but it's not.... It's close...

Lisa Bodnar:

A trampoline park?

Matt Fox:

No, it's close, trampolines are pretty awesome.

Lisa Bodnar:

I don't know, I don't do anything other than a seat drop. You know what that it?

Matt Fox:

I do.

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay.

Matt Fox:

Obviously, I'm in the trampoline community. 

Would you rather be the clown that distracts the bull or the bull rider?

Lisa Bodnar:

There's a clown that distracts the bull?

Matt Fox:

Yeah.

Lisa Bodnar:

Distracts him from what?

Matt Fox:

That's a good question, I don't really know.

Lisa Bodnar:

But I would never want to be the bull rider that's so dangerous. The rider could be thrown and stampled.

Matt Fox:

Stampled, they get-

Lisa Bodnar:

Shrampled.

Matt Fox:

They get strangled all the time.

Lisa Bodnar:

I didn't say strangled, I said stampled and shrampled.

Matt Fox:

That happens.

Lisa Bodnar:

But I meant trampled.

Matt Fox:

That happens a lot actually, would you rather have your fingers stuck in a bottle for a year? Or a bucket over your head for a year?

Lisa Bodnar:

How many fingers?

Matt Fox:

All of them.

Lisa Bodnar:

All of them, but is the bucket over my eyes?

Matt Fox:

Yeah.

Lisa Bodnar:

I guess the fingers... Then I could put things in the crook of my elbow and carry them around like that.

Matt Fox:

That's a great way to live.

                

Lisa Bodnar:

So Matt, someone asked us if criticism and judgment were the same or different and how to do one versus the other.

Matt Fox:

It's a great question. It's difficult often to separate critiquing work, which we talked about when we talked about this last time that, it's so much a part of our field is about being able to think critically and express the criticisms that you have of other people's work because it's how we get better. But I can't see any reason why one would need to be judgmental except in cases where of course there is malicious intent. We're in the middle of COVID.

                There is certainly a lot of research that I think has been done with an agenda designed to come up with a particular answer to support a political view. And that it's very hard to not judge the people who are doing that, but when people are doing their best, we work in a field where there is no such thing as the perfect study and I think you have to go into every study that you do, open to the critiques that people have of your work, but you also, hopefully should not hear it as a critique of you. And hopefully when you critique other people's work, you are not thinking of that as a critique of them, it's a critique of the work. What's your take on it?

Lisa Bodnar:

I think that critique is different from criticism.

Matt Fox:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lisa Bodnar:

I think that critique considers both the positive and the negative and that criticism is just sort of finding fault in something. Critique is something that the intention behind it should be... should lead to some kind of positive action like that it will push the field forward as opposed to just kind of cutting someone down. My criticisms may come from an ability to like perceive how things could be improved but they can really focus on what's wrong as opposed to or what's missing. But I think that if you shift the focus to say what could be improved, you can transform the conversation. I think that oftentimes criticism is correct. There are real problems with something it may not be useful adding negativity to the critique is where you get judgment and I would love to give you an example of something that happened to me.

Matt Fox:

Okay.

Lisa Bodnar:

I gave a seminar and at the end of my 45 minute talk, a guy raised his hand and he said, "Why do we bother studying pregnancy weight gain? All clinicians know we can't change it. We should be studying things that we can change instead like diet and physical activity. Some of this literature isn't even causal. I have no idea why we continue to do this research." And then he went on and on about each one of those points, I felt attacked and he was judging me. He was saying that my work was useless. I think that it's fine for someone to have all of those same questions about the research but I think focusing on curiosity that being a curious person is a way to not only take some of the venom out of that but, we're curious people as researchers, right.

                Instead of viewing it as like, I have this view and I can't be convinced otherwise. If he had said instead of "Why do we bother studying this?" If he had said, "I'm curious about your focus on gestational weight gain." If he had said, instead of, "All clinicians know we can't change this." He could have said, "Do you agree with my sense that gestational weight gain can't be modified," instead of saying, "We should be studying this and that and that isn't causal." He could have said, "Could you help me understand why you're studying this? How do you think we can improve this research so that we can make better inferences from it?" I would have felt so different, I would have felt like this guy was trying to engage me, he wanted to push the field forward. He didn't want to just push me down I just think that that interaction, if you flip it around a little bit, critique can be quite positive and might help someone.

Matt Fox:

Totally agree and one of the things I do think about though, is what do you do in the situation where you think that the work is so biased, that it is going to lead to dangerous inference. I'm thinking about this a lot because we are in the time of COVID and there's a lot of research that's coming out very quickly, that isn't always well done, that has the ability to lead to immediate harm and that's why I worry about this. I... Other than now, I'm rarely if ever, in a situation where the studies that I'm seeing, I have such a concern that it is going to lead to immediate damage, that I need to say something that potentially could be hurtful to somebody. I hope I wouldn't do that anyway, but that seems to be a case where you have to think very carefully about how do I communicate, what I think is an important message without hurting... Assuming while still assuming that people have good intentions.

Lisa Bodnar:

I think that when we judge that, we are assuming that our perspective is right.

Matt Fox:

Yeah.

Lisa Bodnar:

And I think we need to open ourselves to the possibility that we are not right. Some of that stubbornness, we are taught to do, but I don't think it's productive I don't think it's useful.

Matt Fox:

I think you're so right. We are so pressed for time, we have so much going on that I often find with students when I'm critiquing one of their papers, I'm very much focused on the things that need to change and I don't focus as much on what has been done well and what has been done that's really an improvement over things before. I think that's [inaudible 00:22:12] an area we as academics, or maybe I'm just projecting here. Maybe it's just me really needs to work on.

Lisa Bodnar:

I really need to work on this. When you ask questions at, of after people's talks, we often don't have enough practice at asking questions in a way that will engage people and kind of acknowledge their humanity and it's just easier to say the thing that is going to be criticism.

Matt Fox:

Yeah.

Lisa Bodnar:

I have to learn how to do this in my personal life, right?

Matt Fox:

Yeah.

Lisa Bodnar:

And so it's not an easy thing to learn how to do, it takes a lot of effort.

Matt Fox:

I have to admit, I don't ask a lot of questions in conferences for exactly this reason is because I don't know that I can think through the way I want to say things in a way that is kind.

Lisa Bodnar:

Modeling this type of behavior when asking questions is really important because, if we all hear one another asking a question in with empathy behind it and with seeing both the positive and the negative and curiosity. That we all will say like, "Oh gosh, I really like how she asked that." And I have found even very simple things such as "I really enjoyed your talk, thank you." And then asking your question is just like... It just shows the person, I am not here to make your life worse.

Matt Fox:

I think that's so right, starting off a question where you have, if you [inaudible 00:23:48] and it has to be genuine, of course, if you really liked the work, but you had a concern about a particular aspect of it saying exactly that, I really appreciated this work, I thought it was excellent hear this critique in light of that. I think goes a long way to making it clear that you are, you're positive about the work, but just making it clear to people that just because you can offer up a critique of part of it, doesn't mean that you disregard or dislike the work and then of course, when in seminars, when they're in person and I've asked the question, I will often go up to the person afterwards and just say thanks again for a great talk just to make sure they leave knowing that I... Just because I was able to point to something that I thought could be improved. Doesn't mean, I didn't think it was, it was good work.

Lisa Bodnar:

Courtney Lynch had a question. Courtney listened to our other episode.

Matt Fox:

Yeah.

Lisa Bodnar:

And you note on there that you would like to know how many pop tarts you've eaten in your life. So she has asked what is your favorite pop tart?

Matt Fox:

Let, me offer this response in the way that I would like to receive a critique. Which is because, I think the world of Courtney, I think she's fantastic. But, when it comes to this question, there is only one right answer, it's chocolate.

Lisa Bodnar:

Oh my gosh.

Matt Fox:

What?

Lisa Bodnar:

Matt.

Matt Fox:

Yes.

Lisa Bodnar:

I really value your opinion and I'm curious as to why you would choose chocolate when in my experience, strawberry is superior.

Matt Fox:

First of all, thank you so much for raising that point. I really actually appreciate the feedback it's the only response I can really offer is that strawberry and I certainly respect that it's something that you enjoy, but it is objectively disgusting. Chocolate is really the only appropriate answer. Name for me, a single food that cannot be improved with either chocolate or bacon, I rest my case.

                

Lisa Bodnar:

All right, I'm going to edit the hell out of this, got to cut out all your dumb answers.

Matt Fox:

Yeah, go...

Lisa Bodnar:

Because your answers are stupid and I don't know why you think you're funny.

Matt Fox:

Okay, hang on. So we're... This is not, we're not recording anymore for the podcast, right?

Lisa Bodnar:

No.

Matt Fox:

That was the worst episode I have ever heard, I cannot believe you would ask such dumb questions.

Lisa Bodnar:

Well listen, I don't know how you have your own podcast show because you're bullshit.

Matt Fox:

That was an hour of you embarrassing yourself. I am...

Lisa Bodnar:

I've literally never heard you be that mean before.