Shiny Epi People

Lorraine Dean, ScD on her road to epi and Reader's Digest wisdom

December 19, 2020 Season 1 Episode 22
Shiny Epi People
Lorraine Dean, ScD on her road to epi and Reader's Digest wisdom
Show Notes Transcript

Lorraine Dean, ScD, social epidemiologist, discusses her very winding road to epidemiology, returning to academia after 2 years in a policy position, "failing up", and the impact she wishes to have as a Black female scholar. We also talk Reader's Digest wisdom, Covid stress management, pineapple pizza, and more!

Support the show

Lisa Bodnar:

Do you like being called Lorraine or Lori?

Lorraine Dean:

I use Lori. I think I was like three, and my dad taught me that my name was Big Head.

Lisa Bodnar:

That's so mean.

Lorraine Dean:

No, Giant Head. Sorry. It was Giant Head. He taught me that that was my actual name.

Lisa Bodnar:

Just so he could laugh?

Lorraine Dean:

Just to amuse himself. Yeah. He would have his buddies over, like, "Ask her what her name is." I'm like, "Giant Head."

Lisa Bodnar:

Well, okay. I need to ask, did you have a giant head?

Lorraine Dean:

I didn't. Even now, I have kind of a peanutty kind of head. So I know where that came from.

Lisa Bodnar:

Hello, Shiny Epi People, I'm Lisa Bodnar. Thanks so much for listening. Thank you for sharing the show with your friends. You can follow our show on Twitter and Instagram at Shiny Epi People, and you can support the show with a couple of dollars a month through my Patreon. Go to patreon.com/shinyepipeople. 

Lisa Bodnar:

Today, I'm speaking with Lorraine Dean. She is an assistant professor in the Department of Epidemiology at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. As a social epidemiologist, Lori is interested in how individual and neighborhood-level social and economic factors contribute to health disparities and health outcomes for those who are managing chronic disease. Lori and I talked about her very winding road into epidemiology and academia, including working as a hotel housekeeper, doing full-time ministry, working for the circus. Yes, you heard me right. And all the way up to leading a $13 million tobacco policy and control initiative in Philadelphia.

Lisa Bodnar:

Lori also tells me about her husband, Darryl Charles, who is a stand-up comic. Lori mentioned his website, but he also has an album that's called Black Gentrifier and it's available for download or stream anywhere online. I hope you enjoy this chat.

Lisa Bodnar:

Hi.

Lorraine Dean:

Hi. How you doing?

Lisa Bodnar:

How is it that we've never met before?

Lorraine Dean:

I was thinking the same thing. I was like, "How have we not cross paths yet?"

Lisa Bodnar:

Do you go to SER?

Lorraine Dean:

I do.

Lisa Bodnar:

Do you come to my dance party?

Lorraine Dean:

You have a dance party?

Lisa Bodnar:

At Minneapolis, it was packed. There must've been 200 people there. It was great. It was great. So next year.

Lorraine Dean:

I love that. I love that. I love people letting loose and having a good time. I'm not a great dancer. I would say I'm rhythmic, but I'm not graceful. You know what I mean?

Lisa Bodnar:

Yes.

Lorraine Dean:

I can follow along but-

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah, it's really fun to just see super smart people-

Lorraine Dean:

Let loose.

Lisa Bodnar:

Let loose.

Lorraine Dean:

Live your life. Right?

Lisa Bodnar:

Totally.

Lorraine Dean:

Yeah.

Lisa Bodnar:

I played Living on a Prayer.

Lorraine Dean:

Oh, man. The karaoke hit of the century.

Lisa Bodnar:

I took a video of it, and people are just jumping up and down screaming the lyrics. It is the greatest. It's like, "Yeah, we all have PhDs."

Lorraine Dean:

We have PhDs, but we're all people at our root. Right?

Lisa Bodnar:

That's right. Lori, how did you get into epidemiology?

Lorraine Dean:

I would say I had a very winding path to epi. I do social epi, and then I do social epi and cancer. I watched my aunt unfortunately deteriorate from cancer, but that experience also helped me think about all of the other things that happen around a cancer diagnosis and potentially, all of the social factors that might be influencing someone's longevity, and why they got cancer in the first place, and all these other things.

Lorraine Dean:

Growing up, I was a first-generation college student, which is even funnier story. I only applied to one undergrad because I just didn't realize you were supposed to apply to lots of them and eventually ended up going to University of Penn for my undergrad. And it just so happened I lucked out to go to a decent school. The funnest part-

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay, it wasn't luck. It was not luck, Lori.

Lorraine Dean:

Okay, fair enough. I worked hard.

Lisa Bodnar:

A decent school? You worked your ass off hard and you only applied to one school and it was Penn.

Lorraine Dean:

I applied to one school. I was a broke college student. My first year, so one, I had no meal plan. My first semester, I think I lost 30 pounds.

Lisa Bodnar:

30?

Lorraine Dean:

I am not even exaggerating. That sort of, I say, challenge has also led to opportunities. So I met a lot of good friends. We shared a lot of food. I volunteered at a soup kitchen, which also included you getting to eat with the people who you were serving at the soup kitchen. So I was like, "This is great. I can do community service and I get a meal on Sunday, which I could really, really use right now." But one of the neat things that also led to was I had a work-study job, and I did a lot of work doing research studies for other people, being in MRIs, and just studying my brain as a research participant. But I got to meet a lot of the Penn researchers, and I would find out if they had jobs.

Lisa Bodnar:

Dude, that's brilliant.

Lorraine Dean:

It worked. I was like, "I got paid to be referred to them." It was great. I would tell my friends, "Oh, go do this research study. This one is good. This one is not good. This one has good food. This one doesn't."

Lisa Bodnar:

"This one, they don't do a good job drawing your blood. I had a big bruise. This one, they put your head in a vice. I don't think you should do that one."

Lorraine Dean:

I wish it was that informed, but it was more like, "Oh, this one, you only have to watch Beavis and Butthead once. That's the only movie they have, but you only have to watch it once while you wait." Over time, talked to a couple of different mentors and realize that research is what I wanted to be doing. Didn't know what public health even was until a mentor actually said, "You know, have you ever considered a career in public health?" And I said, "What is that?"

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah.

Lorraine Dean:

I was really just doing odd jobs and then stumbled into research. When I say odd jobs though, I have had-

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah, tell me about odd jobs.

Lorraine Dean:

... so many different types of jobs. So I have worked as a hotel housekeeper.

Lisa Bodnar:

That must've been backbreaking work.

Lorraine Dean:

It was. It was. What was amazing to me is there were people that had been doing that job for 50 or 60 years. I did it essentially the summer before I left for college. It was also fascinating to realize how ridiculous people act when somebody else is cleaning up after them. I mean, some of the stuff I had to clean was just outrageous. Or, people like to steal really big things, I think as a prize. So one time, someone stole, it had to be a four-by-six-foot artwork off of the wall. I worked as a waitress. I did full-time ministry, believe it or not. I worked for the circus.

Lisa Bodnar:

What?

Lorraine Dean:

Can you guess what I did?

Lisa Bodnar:

I don't know a lot of the backstage jobs in the circus.

Lorraine Dean:

Why do you think it's a backstage job? Couldn't I have been...

Lisa Bodnar:

Were you driving a motorcycle in that cage?

Lorraine Dean:

That would've been awesome, but no.

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay. Give me one more chance. Were you a clown?

Lorraine Dean:

That would've been a disaster, and no.

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay. One more chance.

Lorraine Dean:

Okay.

Lisa Bodnar:

You weren't a contortionist, were you?

Lorraine Dean:

I wish. I wish I had those sort of skills.

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay, I give up.

Lorraine Dean:

No, I worked retail.

Lisa Bodnar:

Oh, Lori.

Lorraine Dean:

Yeah. But I did do some fun things like I had to be the person to do hawking, like, "Get your programs. Get your programs." That person.

Lisa Bodnar:

Oh, okay.

Lorraine Dean:

Yeah.

Lisa Bodnar:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lorraine Dean:

I was a hawker, but then also worked in the retail tent selling people all types of stuff. And it was Cirque de Solei.

Lisa Bodnar:

Oh, okay.

Lorraine Dean:

I worked for a nonprofit on their research team for a couple of months. That landed me running Philadelphia's Tobacco Control Program. So I was finishing up my doctorate when I had this last job. And then the other jobs were academic jobs.

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah. So, did you do a post-doc?

Lorraine Dean:

I didn't do a master's degree, and I didn't do a post-doc. So right out of my PhD, I was managing the Tobacco Control Program. The CDC had given funds to cities all across America to do nutrition and tobacco control work. So Philadelphia was one of the cities. So I got hired as a result of that. So it was essentially a two-year position though. There could've been opportunities to stay on, but I decided at that point, "You know, I've done all of these different jobs. I ping-ponged back and forth. I keep on landing back in academia. Why don't I just make a full commitment to academia?" And now I can bring this policy focus that I've had into academia, and it helps me to think about, "All right. We can answer some questions from an academic perspective, but what are the questions that people who are really making decisions, what did they need to know?" So I bring that element into the work that I do now, which is nice.

Lisa Bodnar:

So a lot of people are worried that if they leave academia, they can never come back.

Lorraine Dean:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lisa Bodnar:

How did you make that happen?

Lorraine Dean:

Well, I only left it briefly so I was really only gone for about two years. Then, when I came back, I actually did have to take a bit of, I'd say, a lateral move. I wouldn't say a step back but a lateral move. So when I left that job, I went back to Penn. So I went back to my alma mater and worked as a project manager on someone else's project for a couple of years. That transitioned into an instructorship position because the idea of the entire time was for me to get back on a faculty role. But that project manager position actually bought me a couple of years to be able to do things like publish my dissertation papers and things that I hadn't done before.

Lorraine Dean:

Yeah. So I think for me, the time was short enough that I was able to still get back in. And at that policy job, we actually did publish some papers based on our work. So I think if you can keep a pulse on some things like publications, and I made the argument that working for that research firm, that evaluation consulting firm is where I was writing grants and doing other things. So I think you can just make the argument, but I had to make a bit of a lateral move before I could get back onto that path.

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay.

Lorraine Dean:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lisa Bodnar:

What excited you about epidemiology in particular?

Lorraine Dean:

Oh, that's what we were talking about. How we did get all the way around? That was winding and winding.

Lisa Bodnar:

That's okay. I like the winding.

Lorraine Dean:

All right, confession time.

Lisa Bodnar:

Uh-oh.

Lorraine Dean:

I am in an epi department.

Lisa Bodnar:

Yes.

Lorraine Dean:

My doctorate was at Harvard School of Public Health where I was in Society, Human Development, and Health degree program. So I was not in the epi department.

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay. Well, I wasn't in the epi department at UNC either.

Lorraine Dean:

Oh, okay.

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah. I was in nutrition.

Lorraine Dean:

So we can still be claimed.

Lisa Bodnar:

We can.

Lorraine Dean:

So I would say those early experiences that I'd had in undergrad doing that research, which looked at things like healthcare system distrust, and I had developed some interest in social capital. So when I decided to go to grad school, I wanted to study and understand social capital among communities that looked like mine. So it was looking at social capital among black communities and how that influenced health.

Lisa Bodnar:

One thing I noticed about your Twitter, Lori, is that you're really open about failure.

Lorraine Dean:

Oh, boy.

Lisa Bodnar:

I think it's really easy for me and other people that are full professors or equivalent to talk about failure. I would think that it's much, much more vulnerable for someone who's at an assistant professor level to talk about failure.

Lorraine Dean:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Part of this comes from my firm belief, and I don't remember if I made this up or if I read this somewhere probably in Reader's Digest when I was growing up, but I really do believe that the road to success is paved in failure. I think that's the way you get to success. And if that's the way you get to success, then we should all be open about that so we can learn how to fail up. In fact, I have a web series, I don't know if you've seen my web series.

Lisa Bodnar:

No.

Lorraine Dean:

Dr. Dean's Two-Minute Tips for Academic Scholarship. If you go to my website, you can watch them. They're two-minute videos on ways in which to enhance your research productivity. I recently developed one on failing up in academia. That one's not up there yet, but I think the first six are up there. So I'm still editing some of them.

Lisa Bodnar:

Whoa. You're like media mogul.

Lorraine Dean:

Despite the fact that I still can't figure out how to use most things on social media, I did figure out how to make videos.

Lisa Bodnar:

Give your website name.

Lorraine Dean:

Drdeanlab, drdeanlab.com.

Lisa Bodnar:

Give me the failure spiel.

Lorraine Dean:

Like I said, think about failure as just the way to success. Think about what failure tells you. Think about how to use your failure in order to learn more about a process, learn more about yourself, learn more about how to operate in this world. I use some examples of papers. When a paper gets rejected, use the feedback to improve the paper. But then there are other things that are harder to make sense of. For example, when a the number of your grants fail, you need to think about, "Is this topic for me? Is there a blind spot that I just really have? Or, is there someone else I need to talk with? Do I need to talk with the program officer? What do I need to actually make this work?" You have to dissociate failure from who you are as a person.

Lisa Bodnar:

Did you always have this feeling about failure?

Lorraine Dean:

No. It came over time. Especially, early on in academia, I would take a failure hard. I mean, I remember my first paper, I think I was an undergrad, that I tried to get submitted and it didn't get accepted. I don't think I looked at it for three months after that first rejection. All the things go into your head. "Oh, should I be doing this? Is this for me? Is this not for me?" Then, over time, as you just keep on failing, I guess it's like a callus that just hardens. You know?

Lisa Bodnar:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). You must've been raised with a certain level of confidence.

Lorraine Dean:

Well, I would say raised in a confidence that was not tied to my productivity. A lot of the peers that I went to college with said that they were expected to go to college. They were expected to achieve certain things. They were expected to get a degree or two degrees. My family was more focused on character. Were you a good person? Did you treat people right? I don't think I put my confidence or value in the productivity that I was having as much as I was putting it how well I was people and whether or not I was keeping people intact while I was doing those things.

Lisa Bodnar:

So, what's another popular video on your drdean.com.

Lorraine Dean:

One of my favorites is how I got from two papers a year to 10 papers a year.

Lisa Bodnar:

Oh, tell us.

Lorraine Dean:

It is actually a three-part video series.

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay, well you have to give me the Cliff Notes.

Lorraine Dean:

[crosstalk 00:15:10] two minutes. Right. But essentially, the key to this for me was tracking my writing. I actually talk about how to develop a spreadsheet that allows you to track your writing every day. So I tracked the number of hours I write. I tracked how many words I write in that period of time. Because I'm a nerd, I run that through SEDA. I look at trends over time. And I look at, "How much do I get to write when I'm teaching? How much do I write when I'm not teaching? How long does it take me to review a paper? How long does it take me to review a grant?" But that sort of self-accountability, I mean, it just skyrocketed my productivity.

Lisa Bodnar:

Do you have any story of kindness in academia that you either were part of or you witnessed?

Lorraine Dean:

Oh, there are just so many. So I would say this is a kindness that someone did to me earlier this year. So earlier this year, I had some hard losses in my family, kind of early on in the COVID phase. Even just being able to go to a funeral, it was very complicated. I was frustrated and overwhelmed by it. One of my colleagues said, "Here's an away message you can use, already written. What else do you need me to write?" Literally, it was like, "I will call your TA." They just really just stepped in and said, "I will look after this for you so you can just focus on your family right now." That meant a lot to me. I have to say the name. It was Renee Johnson. So thank you, Renee, for all of your kindnesses. But it was really a rock in helping me to get through a really difficult time earlier this year. One of the things about public health is I do think it attracts people who value kindness. I like that about our field.

Lisa Bodnar:

I like that about... That's a great story. Lori, I know you're still early in your professional career, but what's the one thing you hope will have a lasting impact?

Lorraine Dean:

I hope that my presence as a black female scientist continues to one, inspire other black female scientists and two, remind institutions that we do belong, we are just as qualified and competent, and that our voices are important. I think that supersedes any scientific finding or any public health impact that I would want to have. I want that legacy to be there.

Lisa Bodnar:

What do you think is the worst piece of professional advice you've gotten?

Lorraine Dean:

Worst piece of professional advice?

Lisa Bodnar:

And then you can tell me the best.

Lorraine Dean:

Oh. I had a mentor that told me never to negotiate a salary.

Lisa Bodnar:

What?

Lorraine Dean:

Exactly.

Lisa Bodnar:

Was it a man?

Lorraine Dean:

Yes.

Lisa Bodnar:

Come on.

Lorraine Dean:

I was like, "Uh."

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah. I'm not sure you can get worse than that. Yeah, okay.

Lorraine Dean:

I was like, "You can't just expect the system to reward you. That's not the way this works." I would say actually, on the flip side of that, some of the best pieces of advice I would say are that publications are a currency and really think about them, about the ways in which publications can be used as a mechanism to work with other people, to build up your grants, to build up your own reputation, which is just helpful. The other one would be, this is from a Reader's Digest.

Lisa Bodnar:

You and your Reader's Digest.

Lorraine Dean:

I used to read a lot of Reader's Digest when I was a kid staying at my grandmother's house.

Lisa Bodnar:

Does Reader's Digest still exist?

Lorraine Dean:

I don't know. I wondered that. I wonder that.

Lisa Bodnar:

There was a part of the Reader's Digest at the end that was either quotes or little personal stories. When I was in the dentist's office and stuff, I'd always find one and flip to the back.

Lorraine Dean:

They were really good though. They were really well-curated.

Lisa Bodnar:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lorraine Dean:

Yeah. One of the ones that will always stand out in my mind is that good manners will get you places the best grades can not. I must've read that when I was about 10 years old. That has stuck with me my whole life. And I think it still applies. I mean, now the metrics aren't grades, but treating people well will take you to so many better places.

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay, Lori, what do you do to relax?

Lorraine Dean:

I love to exercise. So I play tennis and yoga, and I do Orangetheory. Do you know what Orangetheory is?

Lisa Bodnar:

Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's a gym, right?

Lorraine Dean:

It is, but they have Orangetheory at home now.

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay.

Lorraine Dean:

So you can do it at home. So I'd say that. And the third thing is, pre-COVID, traveling. I love, love, love to travel.

Lisa Bodnar:

What's your favorite place to have traveled?

Lorraine Dean:

Oh, there are so many places that I've liked for so many different reasons. One of the places that surprised me the most that I really enjoyed way more than I ever expected was Seoul, Korea. The Korean folks that I met were some of the kindest, most generous people I have ever met. There was one point at which I decided to go to a spa. Mind you, I speak no Korean. I don't know how the money works. I don't know anything. I show up at a spa and I'm just like, "I don't know if I'm supposed to take my clothes off. I don't know if I'm supposed to leave my clothes on. I didn't bring anything with me." So I show up, I have no idea. I'm trying to draw things to try to tell this person about which services I want.

Lisa Bodnar:

They're rubbing your shoulders like this and your face like a facial, do this.

Lorraine Dean:

Trying to do anything to communicate. I go to this gorgeous, gorgeous spa, and it's me and 15 Korean ladies, who are twice my age, naked. But it was so kind. I mean, I didn't know I guess you were supposed to bring shampoo, and soap, and other things. I just didn't know. So I'm just sitting there on the edge of this little hot tub pool by myself, looking around. Some lady recognizes that I don't have any soap, and she just starts bringing me stuff. She brought me shampoo. She literally poured shampoo in my head and started trying to show me, "This is shampoo to wash your hair." But that whole experience was such a delight. There was so many times I just was a clueless traveler, and people came to my rescue in the kindest of ways.

Lisa Bodnar:

How do you relax during COVID? How are you managing the stress of being at home?

Lorraine Dean:

I wish I could say I was managing it well, but-

Lisa Bodnar:

I don't think any of us are.

Lorraine Dean:

... it is a work in progress.

Lisa Bodnar:

Sure.

Lorraine Dean:

I really have to limit my news time, the time I spend watching the news. So right now my goal is to... I love the New York Times crossword puzzle and the game called Spelling Bee. Have you seen the Spelling Bee game?

Lisa Bodnar:

I don't know it. I'm a wicked-bad speller so anything that says spelling, I run the other way.

Lorraine Dean:

You run the other way? No. It's kind of like Boggle. Do you know the game Boggle?

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lorraine Dean:

It's kind of like a little Boggle board, and I think there are like nine different letters. And there's one letter in the center that you have to use, and you just try to create as many words as possible from whatever in those nine letters. I do that every day. My goal is to try to make it to there because you have to scroll through all of the news articles to get there. So I try to just use that as my target. If I didn't get to the New York Times crossword puzzle or Spelling Bee, I know I spent way too much time that day just looking at news.

Lisa Bodnar:

That's a great metric.

Lorraine Dean:

Right? Maintaining exercise, like I said. I still do, well, outdoor tennis. And then shutting down my computer.

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah.

Lorraine Dean:

I've been trying to only do work in my office, my home office, which I'm blessed. Not everybody has that separation of space. And I got COVID kitten.

Lisa Bodnar:

Oh, that's nice.

Lorraine Dean:

His name is Hannibal Shenanigans.

Lisa Bodnar:

What?

Lorraine Dean:

Well, Darryl wanted to name him Hannibal because he really liked that series. But I thought Shenanigans is a better name for cat. But it's cute. It works because we call him Hanni Shenanis.

Lisa Bodnar:

What makes you laugh no matter what?

Lorraine Dean:

When I got married, my husband, my partner was an engineer who subsequently left his engineering job to become a professional comedian.

Lisa Bodnar:

What?

Lorraine Dean:

So I am now married to a professional comedian. So I spent a lot of time laughing at a lot of things.

Lisa Bodnar:

Are you laughing at things that aren't that funny sometimes?

Lorraine Dean:

No. That is the other thing. I have become incredibly selective about comedy, about recognizing what's good comedy and what's just trashy comedy.

Lisa Bodnar:

What does he do?

Lorraine Dean:

He's a paid comedian. He has his own website. He has his own t-shirts. He had a video that went viral earlier this year. So all that to say, I laugh at a lot of things. I still laugh at some dumb things, dumb movies that I still love to watch, but we do a lot of laughing.

Lisa Bodnar:

Lori, you're a pretty fashionable lady.

Lorraine Dean:

Where did you get that from, especially today?

Lisa Bodnar:

Aren't you? Okay, today, you are looking rough.

Lorraine Dean:

Thank you for just acknowledging that. I really thought it was going to be only audio so I didn't get-

Lisa Bodnar:

It is. It's fine. It's fine. Honestly, part of the reason that like I did full makeup was like, "Every photo I've seen of this woman, she is dressed to the nines."

Lorraine Dean:

Aw, thank you.

Lisa Bodnar:

So, aren't you a super-fashionable lady?

Lorraine Dean:

I would not say I'm fashionable. I do think that to the extent that taking the time to dress myself reminds me that I did do self-care, it is important. Because if not, I feel like it's easy to get lost in no self-care at all. So for me, that says the fact that my makeup, hair is done and my outfit looks coordinated, maybe with a bag and shoes-

Lisa Bodnar:

Maybe.

Lorraine Dean:

... tells me that I did my self-care for the day.

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay. You're pretty into fashion if you just said a bag and shoes. It's fine. It's fine. What is a fashion trend that you just hate?

Lorraine Dean:

So I do have one, but I'll put out the caveat that I really, really try not to judge people's fashion. And part of this is because I did a Fulbright in Venezuela, and I saw people that had so much less than I did and honestly were just happy to be wearing anything.

Lisa Bodnar:

Should I not have even have asked you this?

Lorraine Dean:

No, it's still a good question because there is something that really does irk me-

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay.

Lorraine Dean:

... which is very, very expensive, overpriced t-shirts. If you can remember back to, I think this was probably in the mid-2000s, there was those Christian Audigier t-shirts? There'd be a t-shirt some sort of design on it that looked like a cartoon lion, or coat of arms, or something like that. It would be like $300?

Lisa Bodnar:

What?

Lorraine Dean:

For a t-shirt.

Lisa Bodnar:

For a short sleeve, cotton blend t-shirt?

Lorraine Dean:

Thank you. Thank you. So expensive t-shirts, not on Lori's list of things to do or wear. Buy a reasonably priced t-shirt and then donate that money to a school.

Lisa Bodnar:

Words written on the butt of a sweatpant.

Lorraine Dean:

That's yours?

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah. Like, what? I mean, we've gotten away from that, thank God. But that was the thing. No one needs words on your butt.

Lorraine Dean:

Who's reading your butt?

Lisa Bodnar:

Right.

Lorraine Dean:

And why do you want people lingering there?

Lisa Bodnar:

When you're wearing a sweatpant no less.

Lorraine Dean:

Right. Right. Right.

Lisa Bodnar:

What do you like most about yourself?

Lorraine Dean:

Oh, that's a great question. I like my kindness and concern for other people. I think that goes back to my growing up of just feeling that that's important thing to value. I do really value making sure that people are okay and doing well, and truly do celebrate when other people do well. I really value that about myself. I think if I stopped doing that, I know that's when I've lost myself.

Lisa Bodnar:

If you were a pizza, what kind would you be?

Lorraine Dean:

Pineapple.

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah?

Lorraine Dean:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lisa Bodnar:

Oh, that's going to upset a lot of people.

Lorraine Dean:

Why? Why are people hating on pineapple?

Lisa Bodnar:

Because people hate pineapple pizza.

Lorraine Dean:

Why? It's so good.

Lisa Bodnar:

I think it's so good.

Lorraine Dean:

I just think it really represents me because it's like a combination of sweet and savory, and it's kind of fun and festive. To me, it sounds like the best of both worlds.

Lisa Bodnar:

You know, down with the haters.

Lorraine Dean:

Exactly. Who are these people?

Lisa Bodnar:

So, Lori, I'm so glad you did this with me.

Lorraine Dean:

Thank you. Thank you, Lisa. This was a blast. I had idea that Netflix and chill was a euphemism. And so earlier this year, I was teaching students by Zoom and I asked people if they were Netflix and chilling.

Lisa Bodnar:

What did they do? Did they look at you horrified?

Lorraine Dean:

I think it was like... I didn't find out till later.