Shiny Epi People

Hailey Banack, PhD on prioritizing family and no to smoothies

August 29, 2020 Season 1 Episode 4
Shiny Epi People
Hailey Banack, PhD on prioritizing family and no to smoothies
Show Notes Transcript

Epidemiology methods expert Hailey Banack, PhD talks about prioritizing personal and family life in job searches, the insanity of Covid parenting, hating blenders, folding pizza, ketchup bellybuttons and more!

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Lisa Bodnar:

I like to dance around my room before each interview. You know what I was just listening to? 

 

Hailey Banack:

WAP by Cardi? Inappropriate?

Lisa Bodnar:

Hi, everyone. Welcome to Shiny Epi People. I'm Lisa Bodnar, an epidemiologist at the University of Pittsburgh. This is the show where we admit that the pandemic has made us feel like inadequate, unproductive, moody, overwhelmed epidemiologists. And in fact, that's part of the discussion today with my Hailey Banack Hailey Banack. Hailey is a research assistant professor of epidemiology and environmental health at the University of Buffalo. Hailey studies obesity, women's health and aging. And as you probably know, she is a method superstar. I think that Hailey and I met back in 2012 at SCR in Miami. We were at a party, both in a line of people doing tequila shots, which is a whole other story. Today, Hailey and I talk about family and career, and you'll note that I put the family part first. Hailey and I talk about something that we think is just really under-appreciated and under recognized in our field, which is the importance of prioritizing personal life when making professional decisions. In addition to that, we talk a lot about how the pandemic has changed how we work and how we parent. I laughed really hard when I was recording and editing this episode. If you know Hailey, she is so funny and so smart. So I hope you enjoy this conversation.

Lisa Bodnar:

Haley.

Hailey Banack:

I'm so excited to be here.

Lisa Bodnar:

I'm so excited to have you here. One of the first things that connected us as friends was a very under recognized aspect of our careers, which is considering family in professional decisions. I have a personal experience with this and so did you. So could you share a little bit about your experience when you completed your degree at McGill?

Hailey Banack:

So I had both of my kids during my doctoral degree. It kind of complicated things when I was looking for postdocs and then jobs. I had to consider what was best for my kids and my husband and also my career. So I just, I really was kind of blindsided with this whole realization about, "Oh, I might want to go to school X or school Y or go to Europe to do my postdoc or explore all these super amazing options that are out there, but how would I get childcare and who is going to pick up the kids at the end of the day if I'm working 80 hours a week." So it just sort of hit me in a very real way that potentially my career goals and my family goals won't always align. And that was a tough realization because I never thought about it in those terms before.

Lisa Bodnar:

When I made my decision to move back home to Pittsburgh, it felt like I was disappointing a lot of people. They felt like I should go to one of these top universities and I didn't want that. I didn't want my career to be my entire life. I wanted to have a family. My parents and my sister live here. My grandparents lived here. I wanted my kids to grow up near their family. The backlash that I felt was really serious. It felt awful and it took me a very long time to come to terms with this.

Hailey Banack:

Yeah and we've talked about this, about how under recognized and under appreciated these considerations are when you are making such an enormous life decision. There are great schools out there and great departments with great people, but they might not fit with what you want for your life. And so, even though you might be a fantastic professional match, that's only one slice of your life. It's okay to talk about what you want for your personal life and how you see that playing out when you are making these decisions. And so much, I feel, is emphasis is placed on, well what school is it and all these sort of criteria. But then overlaying all that is you're not likely going to be happy at your job if you're not happy in your personal life. And for me, that meant considering commute times and child care costs and school districts when I was making these decisions. And people didn't always understand how or why I could be doing that.

Hailey Banack:

And I know when I was going through this, you and I talked and you very clearly told me, "This is okay. You don't need my permission, but you have permission to worry and consider about these issues because it's your life. Nobody else has to live your life. And if you're not happy, none of your job stuff matters." And I just wish more people understood that as young academics making these decisions.

Lisa Bodnar:

It feels this is something that's become a little bit more accepted. Have you felt that way?

Hailey Banack:

I think a lot of things have changed. Firstly, I mean this with complete sincerity, that people like you who did this kind of paved the way for the rest of us to make it easier for us to make these decisions. You've had a tremendously successful career where you're at. You have, and I think part of the message that I took from your story and our discussions is if you are a hard worker and you dedicate yourself to the work that you love, you will be successful. And every school has different advantages. Regardless of the name on the letterhead, there are great advantages to being at different schools. Not everyone can be at the schools in the top 10 list of schools of public health. That's just not how job hunting works. And so, I see the fact that you and others have helped pave the way for the rest of us, made it easier.

Lisa Bodnar:

Oh, you're sweet. I think that one of the tough things is that our identity is so wrapped up in our career. If your work really becomes who you are, then it's very hard to make a decision that isn't the best thing for your career.

Hailey Banack:

Yes, and again, you and I both have kids and so this is part of our calculus. Other people who don't have kids, don't have a partner, their calculus is going to be completely different than what ours is. And so I guess, recognition of the fact that everyone is going to use different criteria, different rubric when they're making this decision. I know there are people who may not have family or kids, and they might want to be close to their siblings or a very good friend or their parents, if they're aging or not. There's all these different connections that people might want to prioritize when they're making these job decisions. Those are all valuable reasons for or against choosing a job. Nobody really says, "Well, did you think about how this might affect your longterm family plans?" That's not a question I received. Maybe other people get it, but it was not something I received aside from my discussions with you a little bit. It's a really shitty feeling to feel that conflict so deep within you that your two identities are warring with each other. Yeah, it sucks.

Lisa Bodnar:

I think a very simple question to ask people is where do you want to live?

Hailey Banack:

Yes. Your life matters. You get a say in this. You make your way, wherever you are. There's great opportunities at all these different places.

Lisa Bodnar:

The other issue that I think really brought us together as friends was the struggle that we were both experiencing during this pandemic while we're trying to work from home or as I've heard people call it living at work.

Hailey Banack:

I've never heard that. I love that.

Lisa Bodnar:

And we're also trying to meet the needs of our kids. We are really struggling with this. People that might look like they have their shit together are really having a hard time.

Hailey Banack:

Yeah, it sucks. We could end the podcast with that sentence because it's honestly impossible. I have almost zero rules in my house. iPad, candy, pop, whatever just "Sh, sh, children, sh." But my brain doesn't work in short bouts. I can't write a manuscript in 15 minutes of quiet before it's like, "Snack, mom, he's hitting me." You know? And, and the other thing that sucks is that it feels never ending. I know at some point there won't be this acute active pandemic stressor, but I remember in March when the kids came home and it was supposed to be until after March break and I was like, "What are we going to do for two weeks with the kids at home? How on earth is this going to happen? Like, what?" And now it's six months in, the story's still the same.

Lisa Bodnar:

I remember thinking back in March, "I will never survive this. I won't." I was, you and I were both not meant to be stay at home mothers. And I was literally, and then people would say, "Oh, they might be done with the school year right now." And I was like, "No."

Hailey Banack:

“Don't say it.”

Lisa Bodnar:

"No, I can't. I can't."

Hailey Banack:

I know.

Lisa Bodnar:

I can't.

Hailey Banack:

I remember. It was March. And I was like, "June is so far away. A lot could change between now and June. Maybe we can open up." It didn't happen. Early on when you and I were both freaking out about the pandemic, I spoke to this woman who was on her own in her apartment. She said she did not have any human interaction for six weeks. And I was like, "Holy shit. Like as much as I want to poke my children's eyeballs out right now, at least I have another human to talk to. Do you want to move here? We have space." These are considerations for everyone, not just people who are lucky enough to have kids.

Lisa Bodnar:

The first two weeks of that quarantine, I was crying every day. It was like, just make it to lunch. Then just make it to dinner. And what helped me the most was increasing my dose of Zoloft . I mean, it was crisis. It was grief. It wasn't just, we're changing environments and it's hard.

Hailey Banack:

I think that speaks to everyone having different emotions during this time. My predominant feeling was just completely overwhelmed. My mind couldn't even think four hours at a time when every 10 minutes somebody needed something from me. My brain was on overload all of the time. I was likening this to a sort of exposure therapy for anxiety where let's say you have a terrifying fear of spiders or something and then your therapist puts a spider on your arm and you have to just live with that extreme discomfort. So basically I've just had spiders crawling all over my body for, not that my children are spiders, but that's the analogy I'm drawing. Once you have lived with these spiders crawling all over you, you then aren't quite as bothered by those enormously stressful feelings. I couldn't live in this red alert, super overwhelmed, stressful state forever. So gradually as my brain adjusted to this crazy situation, it just feels less acutely stressful.

Hailey Banack:

People are always like, "How are you doing?" And I'm like, "I have no fucking idea how to answer that question." Like either you say, "Okay," and just get the part of the conversation over with. You say, "Fine," which is totally a lie and I don't know who would be saying fine right now. Or I say, "Status quo," which is really how I feel. Things are at this like kind of stable stage for the moment you've asked me that question.

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah. These are tough times. These are the toughest times maybe I've ever lived through.

Hailey Banack:

I will say the stress of making job decisions, still worse than how I am feeling today.

Lisa Bodnar:

So we're talking about the top two stressful things we ever did.

Hailey Banack:

Yep. I will give it that. It's definitely on my list. But it is so helpful to know that every parent is trying to figure out the same things. And everyone has their kids' best interests at heart and there's no single right answer, which is like such a classic epi, it depends. It really depends on where you're at and how old your kids are and all these things, I was talking to somebody who sending their kid to college, which is a totally different conversation than me trying to figure out kindergarten for my kid. So it's so comforting that everyone's in this together. And I think we just need to keep that conversation going that we are all in this together even if we have different specific considerations.

Lisa Bodnar:

I think a bright spot for me has been seeing that it's okay to let go of some of the control that I have at home. We're happy, probably happier. I hope that I carry some of this with me when this is over.

Hailey Banack:

I think there's a lot of lessons learned. My kid, his brain is actually not going to turn to mush if you let him watch an unlimited amount of screens. This pervasive idea in parenting, like screen time is so bad for your kids. Like you are a bad, bad parent if you just let them go. And now it's like, "Aha ha ha, I proved you wrong, folks." Nothing's going to happen yet.

Hailey Banack:

It's just really messed with so much of the rules that I've established in our house. Like bedtime, what is bedtime? What is time? What is Wednesday? What is Sunday? It's all the same right now. You know? And that's another thing that I do hope in some way comes with us moving forward. You need to prioritize your wellbeing and your kids' wellbeing and whatever that looks like or whatever that takes, if it means you don't feel like putting your kids to bed and they stay up till 9:30 or 10, like whatever. Maybe they'll sleep in. Maybe they'll be cranky. Maybe they'll nap the next day. Whatever. Who cares. If that's what you need to do. If your kid wants to eat ice cream for breakfast, it's dairy. There's some nutrients. It's almost like having cereal., Add a few somethings on top and it's basically a bowl of cereal.

Lisa Bodnar:

Put some nuts.

Hailey Banack:

Yeah, protein.

Lisa Bodnar:

Nuts are protein.

Hailey Banack:

You could add some fruit and then you'd truly have almost all the food groups. And none of that matters. And I hope that that part of Hailey stays with me after we're through this.

Lisa Bodnar:

Well, let's make a promise to try to hold each other accountable to that.

Hailey Banack:

Yes, more people should be eating ice cream for breakfast.

Lisa Bodnar:

It's like a smoothie.

Hailey Banack:

Yes. So all these like influencers who make these fancy smoothies. Firstly, my number one question who is washing the blender every day? That is the worst.

Lisa Bodnar:

My God, the blender.

Hailey Banack:

I really likes movies, but have you ever had to stick your finger in and like try to wheel around the little blade at the bottom? It is miserable.

Lisa Bodnar:

And you're afraid you're going to cut yourself. And then you have to twist off the bottom and then things leak.

Hailey Banack:

And everyone who I talk to about this is like, "Throw in the dishwasher." And then three weeks later you make your smoothie and explodes all over your kitchen because the seals have all broken because you had it in the dishwasher. So basically, I don't know who you smoothie people are. And if you have a live in butler or something to wash your blender, good for you. But my kids will just eat the ice cream in scoops with a fruit maybe or not on top. That's a breakfast smoothie.

Lisa Bodnar:

Totally. I'm sure that if there are people on Twitter that can defend a blenderized smoothie, come at us.

Hailey Banack:

Come at us because I don't know who you folks are, but it's a total mystery to me. I have envy because it really does look delicious and refreshing. You can throw, people who put that spinach and kale and they're like, "You can't even taste it." I'm like, "I ate kale salad last night and it tasted like I was eating soil from my garden." Right? And so if you could throw it in a smoothie, that would be fantastic.

Lisa Bodnar:

Hailey, can you tell me about a time when you met an epidemiology celebrity?

Hailey Banack:

Oh yes. I still remember how nervous I was. There was a causal inference meeting in Montreal. I remember seeing Tyler VanderWiel walk across the hallway and stopping and throwing my body against the wall because maybe I thought he wouldn't see me. He didn't know who I was. Why would he? I was just so completely blown away by seeing him in person.

Lisa Bodnar:

Tyler is such a sweet man.

Hailey Banack:

Yeah, I mean now probably 10 years later, I know that. And I'm sure if I had said like, "Hello, Dr. VanderWiel," or something normal rather than throwing my body against a wall, that would have been completely fine.

Lisa Bodnar:

Which of your five senses would you say is your strongest?

Hailey Banack:

Sight, definitely sight. I just have a very fine eye for detail. I really don't like when things don't line up properly, when the coloring is off, when you're working on a manuscript and you know how sometimes the spacing gets all messed up, like spacing after the paragraph versus line spacing and when there's inconsistencies, it's like my brain wants to just, it can't handle it.

Lisa Bodnar:

Or people who send tables that are the worst formatting and you're like, "No bolding. Stop bolding."

Hailey Banack:

Stop bolding, stop using different colors in the background. Like what is a yellow background versus a light gray background? What are you trying to tell me right now?

Lisa Bodnar:

All the grid lines. Oh my God, get rid of those grid lines.

Hailey Banack:

We need to have a separate podcast about Microsoft Word.

Lisa Bodnar:

What's one thing that people tend to do daily or weekly that you're really bad at?

Hailey Banack:

When you asked that question, my initial reaction was laundry.

Lisa Bodnar:

How are you bad at laundry?

Hailey Banack:

I hate it. That's how I'm, bad at it.

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay.

Hailey Banack:

I hate the whole process of laundry.

Lisa Bodnar:

But that doesn't mean you're bad at it.

Hailey Banack:

Well, yeah, I'm bad at it because I hate it so much that I won't separate things. And then things get colored weirdly. And so I also, I feel like I'm revealing a lot about myself, I always forget to take the wet laundry out of the washing machine until sometime the next day. And I'm like, "Gah!" And then we just repeat the process until my husband is finally like, "Stop doing the laundry. I will handle that."

Lisa Bodnar:

What are small things that make your day better?

Hailey Banack:

Connecting with people, super important for me. Receiving thoughtful emails, "Thinking of you," or "Thought you'd like this paper," or just to make it, you realize that there are people out in the world that are thinking about you and I really love that a lot.

Lisa Bodnar:

If you're listening, send Hailey a personal email.

Hailey Banack:

But not all at once, because then you're going to be spammy. But if you see something that you think, "Oh, tips for doing laundry," as an example, "How to clean a blender" as another example, please send me all of those tips because clearly I am in need of those.

Lisa Bodnar:

If you could shoot one condiment from your belly button, which would it be and why?

Hailey Banack:

Wait, clarification. Is it for me to eat the condiment that I squirt out?

Lisa Bodnar:

You decide.

Hailey Banack:

I guess it would have to be ketchup because ketchup makes most things better. Although I do love mayonnaise on a sandwich. I don't want to squirt mayonnaise out though, so it would have to be ketchup

Lisa Bodnar:

Are you particular about how you load the dishwasher? And I'm going to guess, yes.

Hailey Banack:

Absolutely, and if you are not going to load it in the way that I like it to be load, just don't do it. Just leave them on top and I will put them in. They have to all face the same direction. You can't just put them in all haphazard. So yes.

Lisa Bodnar:

If you went to the spa, what's the treatment you choose?

Hailey Banack:

Oh, massage for sure. I'm basically a hunchback sitting at my computer all day.

Lisa Bodnar:

Do you fold pizza when you eat it?

Hailey Banack:

No, that's really super weird.

Lisa Bodnar:

That's what I think, too.

Hailey Banack:

Why would you fold it? It's a flat thing.

Lisa Bodnar:

There are a lot of people that fold it.

Hailey Banack:

It doesn't make sense. You're trying to eat it twice as fast and just [inaudible 00:22:11] or something? No, I don't fold my pizza.

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay, in your home over the past five months was there ever a sourdough starter anywhere?

Hailey Banack:

Oh my God, no. No, no, no. We have consumed innumerable loaves of sourdough bread which I have purchased like a regular person from the grocery store. No starters over here.

Lisa Bodnar:

Is there a book you remember loving as a child?

Hailey Banack:

As a child? That's a good question. I actually loved, always did love the book, The Rainbow Fish, because it had these little sparkly scales in it and I still love sparkly things. And then I realized I still have this book and I'm reading it to my own kids. So I always really liked that book.

Lisa Bodnar:

Circle of life.

Hailey Banack:

I know.

Lisa Bodnar:

If you had to eat a crayon out of the box, what color would it be and why?

Hailey Banack:

I'm not sure, but red. As soon as you asked the question, I was like red. Maybe because it reminds me of ketchup and ketchup goes on everything.

Lisa Bodnar:

Put the red crayon out of your belly button and we're good to go. I'm very grateful that you're willing to be vulnerable and share parts of you that you may not share frequently in public.

Hailey Banack:

You know I know we talked about you starting this podcast before you actually did it and it is so awesome. It is super fun fun to get to know epidemiologists beyond just their name on Twitter or publications. We're all people. Tyler VanderWiel is a really nice person and I should not have throw my body against a wall when I met him for the first time or saw him for the first time. Maybe if I had heard him on your podcast, I would have known, "Just go say hi. He's a real human just like the rest of us." And so that is a really important thing about this podcast.

Lisa Bodnar:

When people see you, they're not going to throw themselves against the wall.

Hailey Banack:

Oh my gosh. If I saw you throw yourself against a wall, I would actually come up to you and say, "Firstly, are you okay?" And secondly, "Hi, I'm Hailey." There are people who, especially students and staff, they are like, Dr. Banack, can I meet with you?" And I'm like, "Firstly, don't call me Dr. Banack. And secondly, yes, I'm happy to meet with you if I have time to meet with you. Let's talk. We're both real people."

Lisa Bodnar:

Maybe you need to tell your students before they meet with you that they need to listen to this podcast.

Hailey Banack:

It's required listening. And they'll be like, "I can not trust anything that comes out of her mouth because she knew she wanted to eat the red crayon so quickly. And she can't do her own laundry."

Lisa Bodnar:

Thank you Hailey.

Hailey Banack:

Thank you for having me. This was super fun.

Lisa Bodnar:

And she's like so fucking crazy about a blender.

Hailey Banack:

That was actually one of my most favorite segments of this podcast, how we both share such a passion because they're all over Instagram. And it's like, it looks so simple on those clean tall glasses with the straw. And then let's say you're like, "Okay, I'm so accomplished. I made this great smoothie. I'm off to my day." You leave it in the sink waiting for you come back. It's just like the first thing you see when you walk in your kitchen is the dirty smelly blender from this morning.

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah, and that's why ice cream is so much better.

Hailey Banack:

As I said, it's dairy.