Will Goedel, PhD, HIV epidemiologist, discusses how his identification as an LGBT faculty member has shaped his experience. He also talks about skipping a postdoc and going right into a faculty position. Talking to gay Galapagos tortoises, egg everything bagel, telling someone they have food in their teeth, and more!
Will Goedel, PhD, HIV epidemiologist, discusses how his identification as an LGBT faculty member has shaped his experience. He also talks about skipping a postdoc and going right into a faculty position. Talking to gay Galapagos tortoises, egg everything bagel, telling someone they have food in their teeth, and more!
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. What do you have there?
Will Goedel:
I showed up with a Cosmo. I don't really do wine, so I was like, "I'm going to show up with a cocktail."
Lisa Bodnar:
I think that that's amazing. We both have lady's drinks. I love it.
Will Goedel:
The fruitier the better.
Lisa Bodnar:
Hello shiny epi people. Hello shiny non-epi people. I'm Lisa Bodnar, thanks for listening. So a bunch of people have very kindly commented on my newfound editing skills for the audio of these episodes, and therefore I want to keep it real by sharing this with you. So editing each episode takes me forever, like more than 12 hours. And so you can imagine that when I spend that much time on something and then I screw it up at the end, that it is maddening. So I was editing this episode with Matt Fox and I went to play back a section that I had just finished and Matt's audio track was just fine, and here is what my audio track sounded like.
Lisa Bodnar:
[inaudible 00:01:23].
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah, so I was like, "What the hell did I just do to his audio?" I use Adobe Audition and it has a really steep learning curve. And so I'm constantly in a position where I touch something on the keyboard accidentally, because everything is a hot key, and something changes on the screen and I can't get back to where I was, I have no idea how to fix it. And undo doesn't work in Audition the way it works on everything else. And there are so many features in Audition, which makes it very powerful, but it also means that I have no idea what problems I can even potentially cause myself, and therefore no idea how to fix it.
Lisa Bodnar:
So I hear this bananas audio of mine, and I thought that I had somehow changed the audio into another language, right? Because doesn't it sound like I'm speaking another language? After searching and searching through all of Adobe's features, I finally realized that what I had done was pressed one key that reversed the whole audio track. So I was playing myself backwards. And luckily for me, as easy as it is to screw it up, it was just that easy to return it to normal once I knew what I was doing. So podcaster problems. Am I right?
Lisa Bodnar:
Today my guest is William Goedel. I asked Will to be on the show because he is a rising star in our field. And he has so much insight to share about his experience in academia. Will defended his dissertation just five months ago, and he went straight into a faculty position at the same institution that trained him. So now he's a research assistant professor in epidemiology at Brown University. Will is a computational epidemiologist who studies how the neighborhoods we live, work and play in, and the networks of people we're connected to impact the health of our communities. His work primarily focuses on identifying strategies to improve the reach of evidence-based HIV prevention strategies among gay men in the US.
Lisa Bodnar:
Will refer to a couple of his mentors whose last names didn't make it into the final audio, and I just wanted to make sure that I said them. Dustin Dunkin was Will's undergrad mentor when he was at NYU. Dustin guided Will into the field of public health and encouraged him to apply to PhD programs straight from his undergrad. His other mentor is Brandon Marshall, who was Will's PhD advisor and dissertation chair. Brandon advocated for Will to stay on at Brown and provided funding for him to get started on faculty, and then give him time to receive his own independent funding. Both men remain important mentors in Will's life. My conversation with Will focuses on that transition from PhD to faculty, without a postdoc in between, and how being an LGBT person shaped his path and will shape how he moves forward. I hope you enjoy this chat.
Lisa Bodnar:
Hi.
Will Goedel:
Hi.
Lisa Bodnar:
How are you?
Will Goedel:
I'm good.
Lisa Bodnar:
It's so nice to see your face.
Will Goedel:
I know, it's been too long.
Lisa Bodnar:
This is my daughter's closet because there's construction happening outside, and so I had to find a new closet to go in.
Will Goedel:
When I was listening. And I heard you say that you record in your closet, I was like, "She must be kidding." But no, you're literally in a closet.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'm in the closet right now. I'm in the closet. I'm going to come out of the closet, it's not nearly the same thing.
Will Goedel:
No.
Lisa Bodnar:
No.
Will Goedel:
I thought, "Should I record from a closet?" But I think it would maybe be a little too on the nose. Because I briefly considered it and then it was like, "No, I did away with those a while ago."
Lisa Bodnar:
How are you?
Will Goedel:
I'm pretty good, all things considered. I feel like that's my default answer these days. I'm broadly gesturing of the universe, like I could be a lot worse, so.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. But still, perfectly legit that we're not okay.
Will Goedel:
Yeah, totally. Like today I'm feeling good, if tomorrow wake up and I'm not feeling this way, totally fine.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. I felt terrible on Friday and Saturday, and then Sunday, it was just better. And it was like literally no reason. Like nothing. Nothing changed.
Will Goedel:
I try not to ask too many questions of myself about how quickly my emotions change, because they just are what they are. And some days they're good and some days they're not. And my boyfriend's also an academic and he's teaching in person right now, so sometimes he comes home and I'm like, "Today sucked," and he's like, "Do you know why?" I'm like, "No." He's like, "You're an epidemiologist in a pandemic." And I was like, "Right. There's that."
Lisa Bodnar:
I guess I'm getting used to it now. The physical space is fine, it's the mental space that's not so good.
Will Goedel:
Yeah, totally. And I think I still make myself get dressed for work in the morning, and then I will change when I'm done, because I just need something to physically mark the difference, which is the best thing I've been able to do for myself. And I moved apartments in the middle of this also, and so my last apartment, I didn't have a separate office space, so it was like everything was at my kitchen table. And so now at least the office is a separate room now and I have to stand up and say, "Okay, I am done with work now and I am leaving.”
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah, if you can close the door on something and not have to see the laptop sitting there, that helps. The first time I met you was at SER, right?
Will Goedel:
Yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lisa Bodnar:
It was Baltimore, two SERs ago. And then Minneapolis, last SER.
Will Goedel:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I wore those bright blue striped pants. They're really not forgettable there.
Lisa Bodnar:
And we did not get to reprise it this past SER, which is a drag.
Will Goedel:
It really was.
Lisa Bodnar:
But we had some damn good times on that dance floor.
Will Goedel:
Yeah, that is really ... we know each other from Twitter and from the dance floor at those parties. And that's pretty much it.
Lisa Bodnar:
And that's it, which seems really on brand for the two of us.
Will Goedel:
I think so. I think I know more people who are a part of SER through those parties than I know through anything else. I think it's the only way I recognize anyone. And I think those are the kinds of environments where I really thrive.
Lisa Bodnar:
Will, let's talk about moving straight from your PhD into a faculty position. Did you have any reservations about skipping a post-doc?
Will Goedel:
Some. And I think part of why I felt so good not doing it was because I didn't really go on the job market elsewhere. I was like, "This opportunity is available to me at Brown, I think that makes the most sense for me right now." I was really scared about the idea of having to go to a different institution and start over from scratch. I just had a gut feeling that I needed a little bit more stability right at the beginning. I didn't want to go off and go somewhere else. Not that I ever had a PhD advisor or an undergrad mentor who was always sort of like, "This is what you're going to work on and this is what you're going to do." I've always had a lot of flexibility. And that's the kind of mentor I hope to be, sort of like, "Here's the menu of things to work on. Pick which one you like the most and let's make that work."
Will Goedel:
So I never really had anybody telling me what to do, but I was a little too worried about going into a post-doc or going into a position where I was going to be told what I was and wasn't going to do. I thought, if I can stay in a department that I know values the things that I do, because I know my skillsets and focuses are a little odd within my own department, that matters to me quite a lot, because I think I've watched, throughout my very early career, the NIH's attitude around LGBT health disparities has changed quite a lot. It was, what, maybe four or five years ago that officially the NIH declared sexual and gender minority people a health disparities population? There was never that official recognition. I was worried about having to go somewhere else and having to explain to someone that that was something that was worthwhile to do. I wasn't ready to go back out and try to suss out departments where I knew I was going to be comfortable and just being myself. I was like, "If I can have a pot of funding to start me on a soft money position, if I fall flat on my face doing these first couple of grant applications, fine. I know it's going to happen."
Will Goedel:
I had a lot of apprehension taking a full soft money position at first, and then Brandon was like, "You just kind of have to jump off the cliff and sometimes you land in crystal clear water and sometimes you land in muck, and you just have to get back up and jump back off." And that's been my mindset about this whole thing, that I was like, "Okay, if I fall on my face, it is what it is. I'm still surrounded by people who think I'm capable and are there to support me." And that was more important to me, I think, than whether I went to a different institution that was bigger, or whether I went somewhere where tenure was part of the equation. I wanted the freedom to be me and have the support to be me, and that was at Brown without a post-doc.
Will Goedel:
The best piece of advice that I think Justin ever gave me, which he gave me many, and this is one that I carry with me a lot, is that I remember it was when I was applying for PhD programs and was really not feeling great about how I was doing. And he was like, "Someone has to get into that PhD program. Why can't that be you?" And he's like, "Someone has to get a grant. Why can't that be you? There's no reason that it can't be." And whenever I really feel like I'm doubting myself, that's the advice I go back to, it's like, "Well, if someone has to do this, why can't I do that?" That's the one piece of advice that I carry with and I try to give to anybody who will take it. It's like, "By virtue of being here and showing up, you deserve what you want. Don't take it at the expense of somebody else, be kind about it, but if it's only going to enrich your life and the lives of the people you care about, whether you know them or not, someone has to do it, why can't you do it?"
Will Goedel:
I know so few LGBT epidemiologists. I know a lot of trainees that are around my stage that are LGBT identified. I know far fewer people who are mid and later career role models to look up to.
Lisa Bodnar:
That must be hard. So how did not having those role models impact how you got here?
Will Goedel:
My two main mentors wouldn't mind me saying this, they're both gay men. I don't think I knew I wanted that when I started college. I think that was sort of secondary because I was just doing the late teens, early twenties, "Let me figure my shit out generally." By the time I got to college, I had been out for a couple of years, so I wasn't figuring that out. My teenage years had been what they were, and kind of unpleasant, and so I was just sort of like, "I'm mad at the world that I don't know how I want to fit in this." And so it was sort of secondary, of why does it matter that my boss is also gay? It just wasn't coming to mind. And then once I was in it, I was like, "Oh, this matters a lot."
Lisa Bodnar:
Tell me why it matters.
Will Goedel:
I think it's just the level of comfort I have being myself much more quickly. I just don't have to guess if someone's going to be comfortable with me being the way that I am. A lot of LGBT people end up a little sensitive to how people react to how they are. It sticks with me still to this day, that I remember when I was in high school, and high school was not the most pleasant time for me, as it is for anyone, but I grew up on Long Island, which most people are like, "Oh, it's so close to New York City. It must be so liberal." No. Like the fact that my mom had a job was weird, and that I wasn't raised by a nanny was weird, and that my dad was a construction worker was weird. And it was just a different vibe. So we were already a little different that way.
Will Goedel:
And then this won't make any sense to straight people, but I've been very gay for a very long time. I've just sort of always been a little bit more flamboyant, and the way you see is I've been this neurotic, gay persona, what you're seeing is what I was as a child. I think that's why everybody, other than the fact that Dan Levy and I look an awful lot alike, that's why everyone was like, "You need to watch Schitt's Creek because it's just a very similar level of neurotic mannerisms. But yeah, I don't think people took too kindly to that because it was different. I remember my high school principal telling me, because I was having a really hard time, people were not being particularly nice to me in a lot of ways, and I remember her saying, “It's great that you're comfortable with who you are, but not everybody's there yet, so you might want to tone it down a little bit so that other people are a little more comfortable." And that was the advice I was getting.
Will Goedel:
And so I sort of carried that for a while, of like, "If I tone all of this down, people will like me." Or, "There is something about me that is unlikable." When I was getting ready to go to college, I was like, "I'm getting the fuck out of here, I'm going somewhere else." But NYU is a very gay school, and New York City is a very different place, so at least I was there and being around people that were like me. So I think just knowing that I could be comfortably being me, it was really important for me to have gay mentors. But now, as I'm moving into this next stage of my career, it's harder for me to see people who are further up the way, because my mentors are all still quite young. They're all relatively recently promoted to associate professor. So I'm getting that perspective, and I know a handful of other assistant professors, not as many as I would like to have that sort of social network. It would just be nice to go to events and not be the only one who has a same-sex partner somewhere. It can be that sort of thing. Or being in such a small department or a smaller school, or my PhD cohort only being three people, there's usually only one gay person when you have that few people at something.
Will Goedel:
I think it's the community building aspect of it that's really important for me, and it isn't always there. And it's harder to find because you're relying on other people being open and being themselves. It's not like I can always look and see that someone else will identify the way that I do, in the same way that someone who's a person of color will see someone of a different skin tone and be like, "Okay, that person will get it." I think it's that invisibility that's really hard. And then it's the fact that you're underrepresented, but you're not counted as underrepresented. It's this weird sort of paradox of when you go to say, "LGBT people are underrepresented in X field," everyone always pushes back because no one's done a study like they did for all of the other groups to say that they're underrepresented. And people will tell you well, "Asking about sexual orientation and gender identity is too personal. We can't ask about that."
Will Goedel:
And so it's this sort of ongoing problem. It affects the people at the intersections of multiple social locations the worst. Like if you're checking multiple boxes, you're the most invisible, because at least I will move through lots of hoops being a white man. But then there's this whole major part of me that is otherwise unrecognized. Sometimes there's faculty affinity groups at some institutions, sometimes there's not. Sometimes there's grad student groups, sometimes there's not. A lot of university LGBT resources are focused for undergrads, so there's not a lot of stuff for everybody else. It was a hard time for me as a grad student to find them. It's just sort of this ongoing data paradox, it's like, "You're not asking whether or not these people are here so you can deny whether or not they're there and what level of representation they have." And it just sort of continues in this cycle.
Will Goedel:
I have a lot of visibility as a cisgender gay man and it's my responsibility to make it easier for other people to be visible. My little rebellious undergrad goal of mine when I was like, "Yeah, I'm going to go into academia," was like, "My job is done when I have a Black trans woman as my department chair." What I try to keep in mind, the end goal in everything that I do, is that every little door that can be opened up by a gay man should be walked through by everybody else, because the LGBT movement worked in the reverse direction. Black trans women blew open the doors and white gay men walked through them and slammed them shut. I grew up with unprecedented gay visibility. I think that's the other thing, why I don't know too many other LGBT academics, is the millennial LGBT experience and the Gen Z experience are very different.
Will Goedel:
One day I hope that I will know who those other people are out there so that we can be there for each other, because life is weird right now for everybody, academia is extra weird, and then being a queer trans person in anything is also extra weird. So it's just like layers of weird on weird on weird with these structures that were never built for anybody who's going through them now. So let's be there for each other.
Will Goedel:
My mom, for my defense, as a gift, had given me a gift card to go get a suit made, because I had never had nice work clothes all fitted for me and everything. When I went to pick it up, they had me put it back on to make sure it was fully tailored. And they were like, "We have to let it out a little." And I was like, "I'm aware of that."
Lisa Bodnar:
You're like, "You know what? It's COVID. This is how I'm coping."
Will Goedel:
I'm like, "Everybody's gotten a little COVID round, as my friends and I call it, and that's okay, we're all going there and that's living under this chronic collective trauma."
Lisa Bodnar:
We ready for the fun stuff?
Will Goedel:
Yes, this was the part I'm looking forward to.
Lisa Bodnar:
Nice. Okay. Which are you more into: cars, food, pop culture, politics or literature?
Will Goedel:
Pop culture. I watch a lot of reality competition shows.
Lisa Bodnar:
What's your favorite?
Will Goedel:
So I weirdly loved the Netflix one that was for glassblowing, Blown Away.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, I saw some of that.
Will Goedel:
It's competition glass blowing, it's so bizarre. Other Netflix structured reality I would say that's great is Street Food. It's a documentary series that goes through street foods in different cities, and it's just people who founded roadside food stands, and they're usually older women who just had no other choice. And they're like, "Well, I did this and I sent all 17 of my grandchildren to college." And I just sit there and sob. I love it. But yeah, I watch a lot of reality TV and then most of Netflix is scripted original content.
Lisa Bodnar:
I love how single people, single men in particular, seem to just be able to power through binge watching in a way that ... I don't even know that I could do it if I didn't have children.
Will Goedel:
So I mean, yeah, I don't have kids, I don't have pets, I don't have to care for anyone other than me. So if I sit and watch TV for three days, it's fine.
Lisa Bodnar:
Do you tell people when they have food in their teeth?
Will Goedel:
No.
Lisa Bodnar:
But would you want someone to tell you if you had food in your teeth?
Will Goedel:
Yes. But in a discreet way so that it's not like a call-out.
Lisa Bodnar:
How would they tell you?
Will Goedel:
I would just want somebody to tap me on the shoulder and be like, "You might want to check your teeth." Just be subtle about it. There's something about calling people out that evokes a similar anxiety to having to talk on the phone. I don't know if that's a weird younger millennial thing, that we don't-
Lisa Bodnar:
It is.
Will Goedel:
Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
What is that?
Will Goedel:
I don't like talking on the phone. It is not a comfortable experience.
Lisa Bodnar:
It's equivalent to being called out in front of people that you have broccoli in your teeth?
Will Goedel:
It evokes a similar feeling for me, I don't know what it is, where I'm just like, "I don't know if they're going to see this as confrontational or embarrassing and I don't want to be the reason why somebody is embarrassed."
Lisa Bodnar:
Will, you've got a little something... Kidding.
On a long plane ride, do you take off your shoes?
Will Goedel:
No.
Lisa Bodnar:
Really? I 100% take off my shoes.
Will Goedel:
Planes are so germy to me that I don't want to take my shoes off and I barely want to touch anything on a plane.
Lisa Bodnar:
But I mean, you have socks on.
Will Goedel:
Nope. No.
Lisa Bodnar:
I think I'm probably the weird one in that I do take off my shoes. Now, I don't stick my feet in people's space, but yeah, man, I'm taking off those shoes. I'm getting comfortable.
Will Goedel:
No. I don't even really fly in shorts because I don't want my bare legs touching the seats. People look at me crazy-
Lisa Bodnar:
Is this your neurotic gay persona going on?
Will Goedel:
These are my neuroses and you are seeing them in full form.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. What's your best childhood memory?
Will Goedel:
Oh, one that comes to mind, so my sister and I got into a lot of trouble together, because twins tend to do that. We were maybe four or five and we woke up very early on Christmas and we were just like, "Well, mom and dad aren't up, but we can open all the presents." We opened every single gift, including the ones for my parents, like my parents' gifts. We opened everything.
Will Goedel:
There's another memory, we were probably around the same age, think November in New York, it's chilly, for sure. We were out in the backyard, all bundled up and good for the weather and we were just playing outside. We turned the hose on and made a pretty big mud puddle, and in our four year old brains were like, "Well, mom will get mad if we get our clothes really dirty," so apparently we got into the mud stark naked. It was probably 45 degrees out or something. And my mom was like, "They're a little quiet and off to the side of the house. Let me go check on them." And then she grabs her two four-year-old children, one under each arm, and is trying not to get covered in mud and drop us in the bathtub.
Lisa Bodnar:
If you were a bagel, what kind would you be?
Will Goedel:
Egg everything.
Lisa Bodnar:
I don't even know what that is.
Will Goedel:
It's an egg bagel. Have you ever had an egg bagel?
Lisa Bodnar:
You mean like it's super yellow?
Will Goedel:
Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
What's it made of? Egg?
Will Goedel:
I think it's a bagel with eggs in it. I think they're just a New York thing, because I'm realizing people in Rhode Island don't know what they are, but it's an egg bagel and then it's just all the normal everything seasonings on it.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, I get it.
Will Goedel:
Yeah, it's an egg everything.
Lisa Bodnar:
Egg everything bagel. So is it that it's your favorite bagel, or is it that if you were a bagel, that's what you'd be?
Will Goedel:
Both.
Lisa Bodnar:
Why would you be an egg everything bagel?
Will Goedel:
I think just because it can do it all. And it's my weird complex about needing to be good at everything. And I think it's-
Lisa Bodnar:
And also it's kind of out there.
Will Goedel:
And it's out there. I didn't think it was an out there choice, but I guess my frame of reference for bagels is very different.
Lisa Bodnar:
Have you had Montreal bagels?
Will Goedel:
I have not. No.
Lisa Bodnar:
What?
Will Goedel:
It would feel like treason to my home city to have those.
Lisa Bodnar:
They're so good, Will. They're so good.
Will Goedel:
I feel like I got into a late Twitter fight with Ellie about this one.
Lisa Bodnar:
I don't doubt it. Rob Platt, he'll also fight you over it.
Will Goedel:
Yeah, I feel like there was a bagel fight on Twitter once and I was just like, "No, I'm not acknowledging the Montreal bagel as a bagel."
Lisa Bodnar:
All right, well someone needs to bring you one back just so you can try it. If you're willing.
Will Goedel:
Maybe. I'll have to think about it.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. Would you rather always be 10 minutes late or always be 20 minutes early?
Will Goedel:
Unless it's an early morning event, I'm always 20 minutes early, because my mom says that being late is rude. So.
Lisa Bodnar:
It is rude. As soon as I became a mother I forgot that being late was rude, and now I'm like, "Whatever, if I'm fucking here, I made it."
Will Goedel:
Well, that's a totally different story. When you're only responsible yourself, being late is the rudest thing you could do. If you're responsible for keeping other people alive, be as late as you want, if they needed something.
Lisa Bodnar:
Would you rather be able to talk to land animals, animals that fly, or animals that live underwater?
Will Goedel:
Clarifying question; in being able to talk to the animals underwater, can I then also breathe underwater or not? Or can I just only talk?
Lisa Bodnar:
Just talking.
Will Goedel:
That's less exciting. Talk to land animals.
Lisa Bodnar:
What animal do you want to talk to?
Will Goedel:
I want to talk to an elephant.
Lisa Bodnar:
Me too, I want to talk to elephants.
Will Goedel:
And those big Galapagos tortoises, just because they're like 100 years old, they've seen some shit.
Lisa Bodnar:
That is brilliant.
Will Goedel:
You know there's some 100 year old gay Galapagos tortoise that has the tea on everything, and I need to know. I just need to know. And elephants, they seem like they know a lot of shit. Talking to things that fly, birds are horrifying to me and a little bit scary. I have been a little bit afraid of birds ever since I realized that geese have teeth.
Lisa Bodnar:
No they don't.
Will Goedel:
Yeah. Google geese teeth, you won't sleep for a little bit. They have little razor teeth on the inside of their beak.
Lisa Bodnar:
Ew.
Will Goedel:
Yeah, it's horrifying. So I don't want to go anywhere near a bird. I don't fuck with birds.
Lisa Bodnar:
Agree. Although geese, I don't think they fly. Do they?
Will Goedel:
Yeah, they do.
Lisa Bodnar:
They do?
Will Goedel:
They totally do.
Lisa Bodnar:
I've been saying a lot of dumb things on this podcast and I don't even edit it out. I'm like, "Fuck that."
Will Goedel:
You're letting people be people and that, I think, is what's the most important thing about this whole thing.
Lisa Bodnar:
That's right. They fucking fly, they do. Okay. I learned something. Podcast Will is teaching me so many things. Thank you for talking to me.
Will Goedel:
Thank you for having me.
Will Goedel:
I worry about doing media. I can think I put out a paper that's totally worthy of a press release and I'm like, "I don't want anybody to get in touch with me about answering" ... because if you can tell, I don't answer quite succinctly.
Lisa Bodnar:
No, we're only an hour and 27 minutes in, Will, we're not even close to being done.
Will Goedel:
I know. I can just talk a lot and very quickly-