Shiny Epi People

Timothy Sheahan, PhD on being a SARS-CoV2 virologist with a baking apron

December 05, 2020 Lisa Bodnar Season 1 Episode 20
Shiny Epi People
Timothy Sheahan, PhD on being a SARS-CoV2 virologist with a baking apron
Show Notes Transcript

Timothy Sheahan, PhD is a coronavirologist whose work on SARS-Cov2 (the virus that causes Covid-19) is contributing to critical and timely therapies and guidelines for public health and clinical care. Tim's appointment is within an epidemiology department! We talk about what it's like to rise to "fame" for his coronavirus research, how he keeps himself safe, and the high- and lowlights of this pandemic for his work. We also discuss making music, colonizing Mars (without the virus!), his fire obsession as a kid, and much more!

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Lisa Bodnar:

Dude. I just need to say that I fucked you over so many times with scheduling and rescheduling this thing that I just need to say, sorry, and thank you.

Tim Sheahan:

When was the first appointment that you rescheduled?

Lisa Bodnar:

It was a long time ago. Hello, Shiny Epi People. I'm Lisa Bodnar. Thanks for being here. Today I'm talking with Tim Sheahan. He's a virologist whose research focused on understanding emerging viral diseases and developing new means to stop them. He has studied coronaviruses most of his career, and the focus of his work now is SARS-CoV2, the coronavirus that causes COVID-19.

Lisa Bodnar:

Why is he on my show you may ask? He's not an epidemiologist, but actually, Tim's primary appointment is an assistant professor in the Department of Epidemiology at UNC Gillings School of Public Health. How virology got pulled into epidemiology is a whole other story. Well he does know what the modern epidemiology textbook is. It is because his wife is a carrying epidemiologist not because he is.

Lisa Bodnar:

I wanted to talk with Tim today because he's become quite well-known for his science, which is an upside to a raging pandemic. He has been on TV like the BBC and other news media. He was even the topic of an article written in GQ magazine, which is pretty cool. Although, there is little science talk thrown in to our conversation, we focus on what it feels like to be a coronavirus researcher in a COVID-19 pandemic and how it's changed his life. We also talk about how he stays safe in the lab and at home.

Lisa Bodnar:

In this episode, Tim says that it's very difficult to have hope right now during the pandemic, but this was before the results of the vaccine trials had come out. I emailed him and said, what do you think about these vaccine results and how does it change how you feel? What he said was quote, before the vaccine results, I felt like we were just walking down a dark, dark hallway with no apparent end. After the announcement of the results of now three different vaccine trials, it's as though someone has opened the door at the end of this hallway, and we're walking towards the light. It's hard to gauge when we actually get to the end, but at least there's a point of hope to look forward to in a not too distant future. I hope you enjoy this chat.

Lisa Bodnar:

I'm really grateful that you're here. It's really good to meet you.

Tim Sheahan:

Likewise.

Lisa Bodnar:

I have very high standards for the white cisgendered men who I have on my show.

Tim Sheahan:

Uh-oh! Am I in the same company as Matthew Fox?

Lisa Bodnar:

I really hope that you live up to what I'm picturing.

Tim Sheahan:

Jesus Christ.

Lisa Bodnar:

I want to talk about how all of this COVID fame feels and what else makes Tim Sheahan a human?

Tim Sheahan:

Do you want me to speak to that or? The fame is weird. I think like, my kids have seen me on TV and I think they expected us to have a Bravo show and an entourage and be the Kardashians.

Lisa Bodnar:

I've never met a scientist who was in GQ, though?

Tim Sheahan:

Me either. I think there's only been one. Then after they're like, we're not doing that again. That just ...

Lisa Bodnar:

That's way too boring.

Tim Sheahan:

Yeah.

Lisa Bodnar:

No, I'm kidding. I want to hear the order in which all of this happened. You've worked on coronaviruses for a long time, right? In terms of developing vaccines, antibody development, is that right? Do I have that right?

Tim Sheahan:

All sorts of stuff. Vaccines, antibodies, studying how the viruses make people sick and studying how host genetic variation influences, how people get sick and disease severity. All of that is what I've been doing since grad school really.

Lisa Bodnar:

Had you been working with SARS-CoV2 before everyone else knew about it?

Tim Sheahan:

No. The family of coronavirus is basically a family of viruses that are genetically related, but different. They infect humans, your pets animals in the wild, bats, pigs, sheep, they're all over the place. We've studied viruses that are similar to SARS-CoV2, but we didn't start studying SARS-CoV2 until the CDC sent us a tube of it in March.

Lisa Bodnar:

You didn't know that this was coming down the pipe, did you?

Tim Sheahan:

Well, that's the other thing. Coronavirus is, part of their professional behavior is they like to jump from one animal to another to cause new diseases. It happens all the time. There's actually a slide from a student seminar that I had in grad school. The title of the talk was, go ahead and jump. There was a picture of Eddie Van Halen, but it was cute. He was flying across the stage with his guitar. I'm surprised that we're having a coronavirus pandemic, but I'm not surprised at the same time.

Lisa Bodnar:

When the CDC sent this to you, what were you feeling? I imagine it was a lot of mixed feelings.

Tim Sheahan:

It's been an emotional roller coaster. They sent just a few people tubes of virus in March just to jumpstart the research process. I don't know, it's exciting, it's just crazy looking back at what we were doing then and what we're doing now. It's hard to really comprehend how crazy shit has gotten, when I look at my March self or my April self.

Lisa Bodnar:

Your February self was what?

Tim Sheahan:

Cautiously optimistic about our ability as humans to use classic public health measures to contain the virus that's uncontainable. I think February self is dumber than March self.

Lisa Bodnar:

Even March I was pretty dumb. I was like, this is going to end. We're fine.

Tim Sheahan:

Like Thursday.

Lisa Bodnar:

I know, right? My kids will be back in school in two weeks. It's okay. What was the most exciting thing about getting this vile of virus from the CDC?

Tim Sheahan:

Basically what I've learned is that I have marketable skills, that I can actually do something useful with them. I think it's hard for people to appreciate basic science because it's intangible. You're like, you can study a virus in the lab, but it's really impossible to really appreciate how basic science discoveries can benefit human health. It could take years for your work to culminate in something that could save someone's life and that's happening super compressed.

Tim Sheahan:

Early on, the lab was testing the Moderna vaccine in mice and doing things like, preclinical work while they're doing clinical trials for these vaccines that are now in phase three. The work that we did on Remdesivir, which was approved a couple of weeks ago. Since 2015, we worked on this drug for other coronavirus and it positioned that to just immediately be used as a therapy for people and go into clinical trial.

Lisa Bodnar:

What's that like?

Tim Sheahan:

It's really weird.

Lisa Bodnar:

You're in GQ, you're a famous dude. People want to hear what you have to say.

Tim Sheahan:

That's unfortunate.

Lisa Bodnar:

Is it uncomfortable?

Tim Sheahan:

I grew up playing music and being in bands and performing. I think there's a lot of similarities between musical performance and giving a talk. I'm comfortable being more of a public presence than I ever have been. It's more complicated now just because the whole situation that we find ourselves in it's politically charged and people are choosing sides.

Lisa Bodnar:

What was your life like in terms of day-to-day before COVID and what is it like now?

Tim Sheahan:

Day-to-day before I think after I had kids, I got better at time management and prioritization of work and other stuff. I don't like to work at night or on the weekend anymore. At work, I'm not social. I go to work, I do my work and then I go home.

Lisa Bodnar:

That's how I felt once I had kids. I was like, okay, I can do eight hours worth of work in five hours if I just laser beam and forget everything else.

Tim Sheahan:

That's what it was like before but now I definitely work more. In fact, I was going to have to go to work and do part of an experiment after this. But I got someone to fill in for me because it would have been 10 to midnight shift in the BL3 lab, but I'll be there tomorrow night. Then the next night, and then the next night after. There's stuff that we have to do, we can't not do it. People are depending on us to do experiments and make results because some of the stuff we're doing public health decisions are made, clinical decisions are made in like medicines are progressed or not.

Lisa Bodnar:

What are the highs and what are the lows?

Tim Sheahan:

The highs would be reading about the first patient receiving Remdesivir in the United States. It was in New England Journal paper. This person was in the ICU and they get this drug that you helped do the preclinical development for, that's amazing. Who knows if you're ever going to experience that again?

Lisa Bodnar:

What are the lows?

Tim Sheahan:

Recording podcasts.

Lisa Bodnar:

Fuck you.

Tim Sheahan:

No, that was totally a lie. This is something I wish I would do more of. One thing I really like about your podcast, there's a couple of things. One-

Lisa Bodnar:

It's me.

Tim Sheahan:

One, you're the host.

Lisa Bodnar:

It's my charming. Super charming me.

Tim Sheahan:

You're the hostess.

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah, okay.

Tim Sheahan:

No, really. How often do you get to listen to something that's a half an hour long. It's funny and you are connecting with people in a way that you never thought you would. You're learning about people's lives and how they deal with the situations that you're trying to deal with at the same time. I can do it on the way to work and be done, and feel I achieved something because some podcasts it's, I need to pack a lunch. They're an hour and a half. I got to go to the bathroom in the middle of it. I don't know why I brought that. Why are we talking about this?

Lisa Bodnar:

Because I said, what are the lows?

Tim Sheahan:

There doesn't seem to be any end in sight to the situation that we're in. It would be nice to return to some normalcy.

Lisa Bodnar:

Do you worry about bringing the virus home to your family?

Tim Sheahan:

That used to be a worry, but now you can get it at Whole Foods or Lowes, or Walgreens or whatever.

Lisa Bodnar:

Do you feel you're almost safer?

Tim Sheahan:

Hell yeah.

Lisa Bodnar:

At the lab all day?

Tim Sheahan:

Yes.

Lisa Bodnar:

Really?

Tim Sheahan:

Especially, even in the lab where you're actually pipetting solutions that have tens of millions of virus, particles in it, that's the safest place to be.

Lisa Bodnar:

Because you're suited up.

Tim Sheahan:

Right. We wear the space suit. We're in a special lab. I could wear the space suit, grocery shopping.

Lisa Bodnar:

I know that's what I was going to say, why not.

Tim Sheahan:

People wouldn't even think that, that's weird.

Lisa Bodnar:

Not anymore.

Tim Sheahan:

No. It'd be like, "Hey, he's trying to be safe."

Lisa Bodnar:

You don't worry so much about coming home with it?

Tim Sheahan:

No. When you go into the lab, you change out of your street clothes. The only thing you wear into the lab ... Well, I was about to say the only thing you wear into the lab it's socks and underwear but that's not true.

Lisa Bodnar:

I don't want to picture that.

Tim Sheahan:

It's a really awkward working environment. It's really awkward. You put on scrubs, you have shoes that live in the laboratory that never leave. But on top of your scrubs and your BL3 shoes, the lab is called a biosafety level three lab. There are different levels of biosafety, depending on the dangerousness of the pathogen you're working with. Ebola would be level four. We have a level three lab and a normal if you're working on flu or something that can make people sick, but you're not going to die. But then we put on Tyvek booties and a bunny suit and a hood with a respirator and then an apron and double gloves and all that. All that stuff-

Lisa Bodnar:

What is the apron for what's that?

Tim Sheahan:

Just an extra layer of protection. It's an apron with ... It's not an apron that I wear for baking.

Lisa Bodnar:

That's what I thought.

Tim Sheahan:

That would be so cute though if it had pockets and some lace.

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah, and have it be like, the David.

Tim Sheahan:

Like Michael Angelo.

Lisa Bodnar:

What if you wore that?

Tim Sheahan:

That would be incredibly classy, but the ones that we wear now, Lisa, they're actually blue. They're basically impermeable to liquid. If you splash some virus on it, if some accident happens in the lab, it's easy to clean and you can take it off if shit is really bad.

Lisa Bodnar:

Is it hot or uncomfortable in there?

Tim Sheahan:

No, because your respirator is shooting air, basically like a fan that's shooting sterile air into your hood. It's like air-con for your ... it's like-

Lisa Bodnar:

What's air-con?

Tim Sheahan:

Air conditioning.

Lisa Bodnar:

Air conditioning.

Tim Sheahan:

It's like-

Lisa Bodnar:

Why do you say air-con.

Tim Sheahan:

Isn't that what-

Lisa Bodnar:

Who says that?

Tim Sheahan:

Dude.

Lisa Bodnar:

I've literally never heard anyone say air-con.

Tim Sheahan:

Maybe you can take a poll after, who says ... It's like the people who say pop and some people say soda.

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah. I say, pop.

Tim Sheahan:

Right, I don't say-

Lisa Bodnar:

What do you say?

Tim Sheahan:

Soda.

Lisa Bodnar:

You say Coke. Are you one of those people who doesn't say either?

Tim Sheahan:

No, Coke come on.

Lisa Bodnar:

That calls everything Coke.

Tim Sheahan:

No. I don't know if air-con is a regional dialect, but no, it's not hot.

Lisa Bodnar:

Then when you're done, you strip all that shit off and then you wear the clothes that you came in with?

Tim Sheahan:

Yeah. You basically take all your PPE off in a certain order to decrease the potential for contamination of your body. You put things on, in a certain order and you take them off in a certain order and everything gets autoclave gets sterilized before they leave the lab. All of our PPE, the scrubs get autoclave, they get sterilized before they're given back to the laundry service.

Lisa Bodnar:

I'm going to ask you a question that you won't want to answer, but what are you going to do for the holidays?

Tim Sheahan:

Not much. My in-laws live in town. My mom and dad live in Rhode Island. We went up there in July and camped in their yard because I hadn't seen them in six months. It was so terrible. Trying to sleep in a tent when it's 90 degrees and a 100% humidity. My brother made a composting toilet in my mom and dad's tool shed. We didn't have to go inside.

Lisa Bodnar:

What does that even mean?

Tim Sheahan:

It's-

Lisa Bodnar:

You pooped in ...

Tim Sheahan:

Well, it's a five gallon bucket with a toilet seat on top.

Lisa Bodnar:

It's a bucket, with a what? A toilet seat on top in a tool shed and pooped. Then what?

Tim Sheahan:

Then I think he brought some wood shavings that you'd put in a hamster tank or whatever, like throw on top.

Lisa Bodnar:

Tank.

Tim Sheahan:

[crosstalk 00:17:14] a cage.

Lisa Bodnar:

Cage.

Tim Sheahan:

But like-

Lisa Bodnar:

A tank that's fish.

Tim Sheahan:

When I had hamsters, we just retrofitted a fish tank. It was glass

Lisa Bodnar:

That's fine. It's unusual. I wouldn't call it a tank in that [inaudible 00:17:29].

Tim Sheahan:

Then you throw shavings on top and that's it. Then the next person can come in and it's ready to go.

Lisa Bodnar:

It doesn't stink.

Tim Sheahan:

Not like you would think.

Lisa Bodnar:

Then who has the pleasure of dumping it?

Tim Sheahan:

Now, my brother he'd be like, I'm going to dump it and he'd take a shovel into the woods and then he would come back.

Lisa Bodnar:

That's a commitment to public health.

Tim Sheahan:

Yeah.

Lisa Bodnar:

Although is it safe to dump raw sewage in the woods?

Tim Sheahan:

Well, it's a rural area and he dug a hole and it wasn't next to the well, like John Snow, wouldn't be like, this is bad.

Lisa Bodnar:

Tell me about Tim Sheahan, the music maker.

Tim Sheahan:

I started playing guitar when I was 12 or 13. I started writing and recording and composing my own stuff when I was a kid. I played in a band in college. We made a record, an actual record.

Lisa Bodnar:

An actual record?

Tim Sheahan:

Yeah. Like a 45.

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah, cool.

Tim Sheahan:

That's what we sold when we played shows and stuff. We actually, we did a tour on spring break, junior year in college and we drove from New Hampshire and we played all through, we played a bunch of shows and in Pennsylvania. We played at Villanova and we ended up in Detroit, that was our last stop. I can't remember if I was driving, but we got into a car crash on an overpass. Someone ran into our U-haul trailer and we were tore over.

Lisa Bodnar:

But if you were touring, that means you guys were really good?

Tim Sheahan:

We were touring that's true-

Lisa Bodnar:

I think that is equivalent to something good.

Tim Sheahan:

It's kind of screechy, punky, rock music. Before COVID I would do some work in my computer. Then I would come upstairs to this room, which is my recording studio slash guest room slash now, my wife's office and I would play guitar and record music and stuff like that. Then eventually go to bed. Now that's more of a rarity these days. It's really shitty. I started, there's a folder on my desktop called new album, 2018.

Lisa Bodnar:

That's sad.

Tim Sheahan:

I like start stuff I never finish it. So sad trombone.

Lisa Bodnar:

What else do you do to keep yourself sane, Tim?

Tim Sheahan:

Cook. I spend a lot of time making food. The joke in my family is, it takes dad a half an hour to make a sandwich because I want every bite to be the best sandwich bite that you've ever had in your life. But it's funny, I don't know how I got in the sandwich thing. I don't actually like sandwiches all that much.

Tim Sheahan:

My worst nightmare is I'm at a meeting and there's a box lunch and there's some cold soggy ass sandwich in it. I'm like, I will starve, I am not going to eat this. I walk and go to some falafel place down the street because that's what I want to have.

Lisa Bodnar:

What's your favorite drink?

Tim Sheahan:

Coffee.

Lisa Bodnar:

How do you like it?

Tim Sheahan:

Cold.

Lisa Bodnar:

What do you put in it?

Tim Sheahan:

Nothing. But the funny thing about being in the BL3 lab, there's no bathroom. For you to go to the bathroom you have to decontaminate your suit, throw everything out and leave and stop doing what you're doing.

Lisa Bodnar:

You have to suit down and suit up, just to go to the bathroom?

Tim Sheahan:

Exactly. On day-

Lisa Bodnar:

Oh my God.

Tim Sheahan:

You could be in there for five or six hours straight. No food, no water.

Lisa Bodnar:

You can't have any food or water in the lab?

Tim Sheahan:

No. On days that I know that I'm going to be in there for a long time. I had to titrate, I figured out that it's five sips of coffee. Any more and it's borderline you're running down the hallway, wetting your pants, trying to get to the bathroom in time.

Lisa Bodnar:

Wow. Isn't anyone wearing adult diapers?

Tim Sheahan:

Maybe.

Lisa Bodnar:

I couldn't handle that. I drink so much water. I would be peeing every 45 minutes.

Tim Sheahan:

You would have a hard time in the lab. You'd be very unproductive.

Lisa Bodnar:

Because as soon as I would suit up, I would have to go to the bathroom.

Tim Sheahan:

Be like, sorry guys. Hold on. Hold on.

Lisa Bodnar:

If humans started colonizing, Mars, would you volunteer to move there?

Tim Sheahan:

Man, really. Would I get away from Corona virus?

Lisa Bodnar:

Yes.

Tim Sheahan:

I think if we could maybe get everybody into a two-week quarantine and maybe get an NP swab before they get on the spaceship I'm there. How long would it take to get there though?

Lisa Bodnar:

A really fucking long time.

Tim Sheahan:

Well, you didn't tell me that.

Lisa Bodnar:

I wouldn't even move to the moon.

Tim Sheahan:

The moon is kind of depressing. It's very monochromatic.

Lisa Bodnar:

Yes.

Tim Sheahan:

Where's the pop of color moon?

Lisa Bodnar:

It doesn't even have an atmosphere.

Tim Sheahan:

What a quitter? Way to not be a planet.

Lisa Bodnar:

You really gave up halfway there.

Tim Sheahan:

Yeah. It's like sweat pants. It's like the sweatpants equivalent of planets.

Lisa Bodnar:

I have these dresses, they're just cotton and you just throw them on. They're just like ... I call them my, I give up dress.

Tim Sheahan:

Do they even not have pockets?

Lisa Bodnar:

No, they've got no pockets.

Tim Sheahan:

Come on.

Lisa Bodnar:

They're just cheap. It's like, when you go into work and you're just fuck all of this, I give up and you just ... dress. Tell me something dumb you did as a kid?

Tim Sheahan:

This could be another five hours. I grew up in the eighties and in the eighties, which is surprising today, but people would routinely come to my mom and dad's house for parties and smoke. Inside, it's like, what? That was a thing. So there's always lighters and matches around my house. I fell into some lighters somehow and was experimenting as a five and a half year old. The thing that I chose to do was to go into my mom and dad's bedroom and go under their bed and light the cover of the box spring on fire and then blow it out.

Tim Sheahan:

Then I would light it on fire and then blow it out. Then finally I lit it on fire and I couldn't blow it out. I went downstairs and I was like, "Mom, I think I lit your bed on fire." She's like, "What are you talking about? You think you ..." She goes upstairs and the sheet is on fire. The fire department came. Ultimately my mom and dad ended up getting their whole bedroom, refurnished, new rug, new furniture and everything because I burned it down.

Lisa Bodnar:

Wow. Were the firefighters like, "Hey son, don't play with matches dummy."

Tim Sheahan:

It's like Smokey the bear. That didn't stop me from doing stupid shit with fire after that. I continued to do dumb things after that, including light fireworks off inside.

Lisa Bodnar:

Oh my God.

Tim Sheahan:

Me and my brother ... You know WD40, hairspray is all flammable. I would write words with flammable liquid in the basement and light it on fire and do stuff like that.

Lisa Bodnar:

Wow. Who's the funniest person you know?

Tim Sheahan:

This is a really hard question. The reason it's hard is because I don't see people anymore.

Lisa Bodnar:

Do you remember [people 00:25:19]?

Tim Sheahan:

I forgot. I think I might have funny friends, but I don't see them anymore.

Lisa Bodnar:

You're funny. How did you get to be funny? Is your family funny?

Tim Sheahan:

No, I don't know why. I think I'm like my daughter where I've always been the baby in the family. I'm vying for attention. Notice me, I'm a person too. It's like shut up. Go play with your GI Joes and stop bothering me or go ...

Lisa Bodnar:

Go play with matches.

Tim Sheahan:

Exactly. Here's a lighter. These are cigarettes this is a lighter.

Lisa Bodnar:

Go.

Tim Sheahan:

Go have fun.

Lisa Bodnar:

Figure it out. I'm really grateful that you did this with me because it's been so much fun to talk to you.

Tim Sheahan:

Thanks.

Lisa Bodnar:

Thank you.

Tim Sheahan:

Thank you.

Lisa Bodnar:

You're a celebrity. I'm going to be able to look back and be like, I had that guy on my show.

Tim Sheahan:

But you've had famous people on here before.

Lisa Bodnar:

I mean, Julia Marcus.

Tim Sheahan:

She's like-

Lisa Bodnar:

She's famous, but that's it. Everyone else is, they're just chumps.

Tim Sheahan:

Hey, that's not nice.

Lisa Bodnar:

I'm just kidding. I love, love my guests.