Shiny Epi People

Lauren McCullough, PhD on goal setting and baton twirling

January 23, 2021 Lisa Bodnar Season 1 Episode 26
Shiny Epi People
Lauren McCullough, PhD on goal setting and baton twirling
Show Notes Transcript

Lauren McCullough, PhD is a cancer epidemiologist who has mastered what people sometimes call "soft skills" (how you work). In this episode she talks about the 3 questions to ask yourself before setting goals, how to map goals onto time allocation, and how to get what you need in a mentor. Lauren is incredibly talented in the arts, as well! She tells me about being a national champion baton twirler and bowing out of the 2nd round of auditions to be a Beyonce backup dancer so go to grad school!

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Lisa Bodnar:

Hello, my peppy, epi friends. I'm Lisa Bodnar, welcome to the Shiny show. As always, you can find us on Instagram and Twitter @ShinyEpiPeople. I post some different content on there. Thank you for sharing the show with your friends. And if you would like to support the show via a few dollars a month, the cost of a cup of fancy coffee, then you can find us on Patreon at pateron.com/shinyepipeople. Thanks to the new patrons from this past week. I appreciate your support. Today, I'm talking with Lauren McCullough. Lauren is an assistant professor of epidemiology at Rollins School of Public Health. Her overarching research interest is in the life course epidemiology of breast cancer and lymphoma. Through her work, Lauren seeks to improve cancer outcomes among low income and minority populations by identifying molecular targets for behavioral and therapeutic intervention. I was introduced to Lauren at the 2019 SER meeting in Minneapolis, where she was awarded the Brian McMahon Early Career Award.

Lisa Bodnar:

At the meeting, she also co-presented a workshop with Tim Lash called, "Hone your soft skills and own the job market." I think everyone who is interested in soft skills hates the name soft skills, because it makes them sound irrelevant or simple, but they're really not. They relate to how you work. Soft skills include interpersonal skills, communication skills, listening skills, time management, and empathy, among others. I've heard people say that we should call these people skills. Certainly we all need technical skills to be successful in our careers, but people with good people skills make for outstanding teammates, supervisors, and colleagues. When I heard that Lauren was a master at people skills, I knew I wanted to get to know her beyond just a simple, "Hello, nice to meet you," at SER. Today, Lauren focuses on goal setting, and then, how you can map career priorities and goal setting onto the amount of time you allocate to certain tasks. I hope you enjoy this chat.

Lisa Bodnar:

Lauren, there are so many things I want to talk to you about. One of the things that I've read that you've written about is goal setting. You talk about these three questions to ask yourself, who are you? What do you want? And what is your plan?

Lauren McCullough:

Right. We're overachievers, all of us epidemiologist scientists are. And a lot of times we see the in. "I want to get into a PhD program. I want to get a tenure track job. I want to get tenure." But the process is not well defined. And so for me, it became about, "Well, how do I define that process for myself?" And then trying to do that, which is, "Well, what's the plan?" I found myself thinking, "Well, why is this outcome important for me?" I think we put our sort of box around these things, but I think it has a lot to do with, "Well, what is it that you want?" That may not actually be the outcome that you're looking for. It's the gold star, but may not necessarily be your gold star. And so that's where the first one came from. Who am I?

Lauren McCullough:

And this is one that I come back to probably almost every week to make sure that the things that I'm doing are getting me towards my goal, but are also consistent with who I am as a person, because I feel like that disconnect can leave a lot of just internal strife and dissatisfaction in life in general. And I found asking that of myself has been particularly important in a pandemic because if I look around my current situation, who am I? Mom, diaper changer, kindergarten teacher, all of these things. I have to constantly remind myself, "Lauren, you are a scholar. And you're a scholar that's working to eliminate disparities in breast cancer." And so just reaffirming for myself who I am as a person can sometimes get me through situations where I don't necessarily feel like what I'm doing day to day is who I see myself as.

Lauren McCullough:

And then the second question, what do I want? I think as scholars, we have all kinds of things that we want professionally, academically, scientifically. And I think defining that for yourself is really important because everybody is doing great work in multiple domains. And so you have to really decide, "Well, where do I fit? What is it that I want to do? Who do I want to affect? How do I want to change?" Taking a step back and saying, "Okay, well, this is the goal. This is the area, the domain that I want to work in. I do want a tenure track job. I don't want a tenure track job." Really just defining what is it that I want? Not what the world tells me I should want, but what is it that I really want to do?

Lauren McCullough:

And then the last one, the, what is your plan? Is the part where I think people don't give enough attention. "I have these goals that I don't actually have steps to getting there, and I don't have sources of accountability." And so I tell people visual accountability, verbal accountability, are good ways to make sure that you're making progress towards what it is that you want, because if you don't have a good plan for getting there, then again, that can be another moment where there's just this disconnect between saying, "This is what I want," and then, "This did or did not happen." And planning for me is really important because time is limited. Making sure I've allocated, "I want to write an RO1. Well, I'm at home with three kids all day. How am I going to do that?" You can say one thing, but actually doing it is something completely different. So making sure you have that plan in place, I think is really important.

Lisa Bodnar:

How did you learn this?

Lauren McCullough:

A lot of it was reading, all the self-help books like Seven Signs of Highly Effective People.

Lisa Bodnar:

Me too.

Lauren McCullough:

Books. I think as academics, we're trained to think about the science and the methods and all of these things, but in some ways, this is such a business. My husband is actually in business. And so, I read a lot of the stuff that he brings home about management and negotiation and all of these other things. And so I find all of that very useful, and reading these books is kind of how I've arrived at my personal, who are you? What do you want? What's your plan?

Lisa Bodnar:

Is this something that you feel like is almost a calling for you?

Lauren McCullough:

Definitely. I'm an advocate. I'm an INFJ on a Myers-Briggs. And so I'm always thinking about, "How do I take what it is that I know and give it out?" I actually have a personal mission statement, and a part of that statement is to leave empty. And so that means everything that I know, all the knowledge that I've gained, I want to make sure that before I leave this place, I've given that out so there are little sprinkles of Lauren all over the place.

Lisa Bodnar:

You also talk about how career priorities and goal setting fit in to time allocation.

Lauren McCullough:

I mean, it's very simple, right? If I say I want to write a paper, but then you look at your 40 hour week and you spend five hours working on the paper, your time doesn't match what you say your goals are. And so it really is outlining, "Well, what are the goals? What are the most important things?" And making sure that the time that you're spending matches with what you say is most important. And so I tell people, calendar block. If you need to write, block that time on your calendar, that writing time protected, just like you would protect a meeting with your mentor or mentee or dean or boss, you protect that time for the thing that's most important for you. And you make sure you get that done. It's a simple process, but in practice, it can be really difficult. And I tell people, habits are really unspectacular things that lead to spectacular results. And if you can just...

Lisa Bodnar:

I love that so much.

Lauren McCullough:

If you can just develop these habits over time, you're going to have this outstanding end point, but it doesn't feel spectacular doing it, right? And so if you can just get past that part, then you can get the end result you're really looking for.

Lisa Bodnar:

What missteps did you make along the way, if you'd be willing to share any of them?

Lauren McCullough:

Yeah, yeah, no, I haven't had any missteps. I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. No, I've had a lot of missteps. I think my biggest is not understanding what I needed in a mentor because I don't think that took the time to really understand, "Well, who am I and what is it that you need? And then who is the person that's going to be able to get you what you need?" And also understand sort of the totality of who I am as a person. And so that's probably the biggest thing that I talk to trainees about, ones that are interested in Emory. And if they decide not to come to Emory, I say, "Hey, I'm still here to talk to you through this process," because it's a really important process. And you want to make sure that the people you align yourself with are really going to be the types of people that you need, the advocates that you need, the sponsors that you need.

Lisa Bodnar:

What do you think you needed in a mentor in those years? Was this pre doc time? I mean, you're assistant professor level now.

Lauren McCullough:

Yeah, so this was in my graduate school, so my master's, and then I sort of found myself about year one in my pre doc, but what was it that I needed? I needed someone that understood my passion for what my research interests were and how to take that and be able to layer things on top of it that were going to be well-received at peer review, or were going to be fundable as grants. Somebody that taught me that art, someone that understood, I think, the challenges being a woman and being a minority in academia, and not feeling very disconnected from, I think, people that had the capacity to really propel a career.

Lauren McCullough:

And so when I got to Emory, and I wasn't initially matched with Tim, but ultimately, he became a mentor. Part of this was, "Listen, I don't need you to just be my mentor. You need to be my sponsor. You are Tim Lash, right? I knew for you to leverage who you are for me, if you feel like I'm worthy and deserving," right? And so there was an entire mentoring contract that was written up and signed. And that's how I approach it now. I tell people upfront, "This is what I need, and if you're not capable of doing that, totally fine. I can find someone that is."

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah. Can you describe what the difference is between a mentor and a sponsor?

Lauren McCullough:

A mentor can be a sponsor. A mentor is a person that's very career driven. Usually the relationship is more long term. A sponsor, I think of as being a person, the relationships, sometimes you don't even know exist, or if they exist, they can be very short-term. And that's just a person that's going to advocate for you. In the ideal situation, your mentor would also be your sponsor, but they're also when you're trying to find a job or you're going up for tenure or whatever, you need somebody in addition to your mentor. You need other people that are going to say, "This person is worthy. This person is excellent. They do good science." And I think that's where the sponsorship comes in.

Lauren McCullough:

And I always tell students, "You're not going to get everything you need in one person." I say, "A personal board of advisors" is what I call it. Again, I borrow from business all the time. You need coaches and mentors and sponsors. And these relationships are not just hierarchical, but they're also lateral. So having peer mentors and peer sponsors, I think, are really important. And so really sort of charting out, who are my people? I think is really important, and especially as an early career scientist.

Lisa Bodnar:

Tell me about being a real estate investor. Literally this came as a complete shock to me.

Lauren McCullough:

Yeah, I think to most people.

Lisa Bodnar:

It's so businessy. I would be so bad at this.

Lauren McCullough:

No, I don't think you would.

Lisa Bodnar:

Oh, I would.

Lauren McCullough:

I became interested in real estate in the last year of my master's program. I was living in Nashville, I was here in medical college for my masters. And just sort of seeing how neighborhoods are organized and wondering why and how it continues to be organized. Literally across the train tracks was Vanderbilt, which is where I went for undergrad, you cross the train tracks and it was all the HBCU's, Fisk, Meharry, Tennessee State. You couldn't find fresh groceries. That's where all the McDonald's were. At Vanderbilt, I literally had to go two miles, three miles before I could get fast food. I worked at a soup kitchen. So just got to interact with all kinds of people, just understanding what their options were for living. So most were on section eight housing, and your options with section eight are far and few between, like most section eight opportunities are in lower income neighborhoods with bad schools, no green space, et cetera.

Lauren McCullough:

And so with the little money that I had, and my husband was actually working a real job. And so he had more money than I. I convinced him, we should really just invest in real estate. Let's invest in section eight housing, but let's do it in areas where people can actually go to good grocery stores and their kids could go to good schools. And so we just started with a few, and getting tenants in that normally would not have qualified to live in those types of neighborhoods, right? They didn't have the credit score. They had records. I mean, we've had people that have been in jail. It's amazing when you sit down and you talk to these folks and their stories, this guy can't get an apartment or buy a house because he has a record of something that he did when he was in his twenties and he's 45 and he's a veteran and has an income plus a VA check.

Lauren McCullough:

I'm like, "You're more than qualified," right? And they're so appreciative. They take care of the properties because they're so appreciative. And with this particular guy I was talking about, at the end of it, I was able to write him a letter applying for a mortgage saying, "He's been my tenant for four years and never once has he been late. Good guy, took care of the property." And so that's kind of how it started. And along the way, they're paying their rents, the principal is going down, and we eventually sell the properties. We make a profit and we buy more properties for more people to live in. I love buying houses. I love thinking about neighborhoods. I love decorating, everything that comes along with houses, I love.

Lisa Bodnar:

It's pretty, what’s behind you.

Lauren McCullough:

Thank you.

Lisa Bodnar:

[crosstalk 00:14:53] It's really nice.

Lauren McCullough:

I love decorating. So anyway, it's been really good. We've invested in Georgia, North Carolina, and Tennessee, all the places we've lived in.

Lisa Bodnar:

That's wonderful. Let's talk for a minute about pandemic parenting. Wouldn't it be nice if by the time this came out, pandemic pandering...

Lauren McCullough:

Pandering.

Lisa Bodnar:

Pandemic parenting was not a thing anymore. Wouldn't that be amazing?

Lauren McCullough:

It would be amazing. I actually was saying just this morning, I'm like, "It's going to feel amazing to get up, get these kids ready, and send them off to school." That seems so foreign to me right now.

Lisa Bodnar:

I don't even remember, what is it like when I get up in the morning and everyone gets ready and I leave the house? What? What is that? How did that feel? How did I get ready in time? What about lunches?

Lauren McCullough:

Right? Yeah. You have to rediscover everything you used to do.

Lisa Bodnar:

So you have three little boys. How old are they?

Lauren McCullough:

My oldest is eight, my middle is five, and the baby is now 13 months.

Lisa Bodnar:

Oh my gosh, you have a 13 month old. Whoa. Is he sleeping through the night?

Lauren McCullough:

No. No. No. Which, everybody at Emory that knows me, knows. I go to my support group and I'm like, "Y'all, he's still not sleeping. I need more advice." With an infant when there are no other kids, you sleep, you naps during the day, et cetera. I'm not sleeping at night. I'm getting up at 5:00 AM to do work with nobody else here. And then there's no napping because I have these other two that my husband and I are tag teaming, with the classroom. I used to say the hardest thing I ever did in life was getting certified to be a lifeguard. And so now this trumps it.

Lisa Bodnar:

I would think so. How have you changed your expectations, not just in terms of work, but in terms of personally and at home?

Lauren McCullough:

I ask myself, "Do I need to do this? Does it have to be me? Can it not be somebody else?" And then, "Do I have to do this now?" Those are the two questions I asked myself. For example, I was helping a senior PI with some preliminary data collection and I was going to pilot an interview, a questionnaire for them. And I was like, "I don't have time to do this." I'm like, "You know what? Do you just need black women? Because if you need black women, I got a whole family of them. It doesn't have to be me. Can I hook you up with all my aunties? They'll do it for you." Right?

Lauren McCullough:

And then things that it's like, "No, Lauren, you actually need to be the one to do this like this." Then it's, "Okay, but do I have to do it now? Can I not push this a few months? Can I push this until next year?" And so that's how I've handled the work related things. Just really sort of asking myself those questions. At home, it's harder because I'm surprised the kid hasn't busted through this door because everything they need is, "I need you to do it. I can't go ask daddy. And I need you to do it now."

Lisa Bodnar:

Right now.

Lauren McCullough:

So that doesn't work for the kids. But I've learned, just honesty with them actually really goes a long way. I tell my eight year old, "Mommy's working on a grant and it's really important for me." And I'll tell him what it's about. He actually would look over my shoulder and read stuff. And actually it's been really refreshing because I think they've learned me as Lauren and not just as mommy. And that's something that really, I like. I like that, that they know that I'm this person and I have these goals and these are the things I want to accomplish.

Lisa Bodnar:

Lauren, what's something that few people would know about you?

Lauren McCullough:

I was a competitive baton twirler for 12 years of my life. It was intense. This is like being at the gym 20 hours a week. I had a coach, I traveled to compete and people are like, "Oh, you're a majorette." I'm like, "No, I was a competitive baton twirler."

Lisa Bodnar:

Wait, were you in any group at all ever? A marching band type thing?

Lauren McCullough:

Yeah. So I was in band, but I was the feature twirler. So they're the majorettes. And there is the one that does all the big tricks and tosses it up really high, does three batons, sometimes does fire, I did machetes.

Lisa Bodnar:

What?

Lauren McCullough:

Yeah.

Lisa Bodnar:

That's incredible.

Lauren McCullough:

Yeah. They're real legit machetes, but yeah, I twirled forever. I won my first state title at 12 and then I won my first national title at 16. I think I was the first black woman to win.

Lisa Bodnar:

Really?

Lauren McCullough:

Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa Bodnar:

Incredible. But what is one of the most impressive things that you could do with twirling a baton or a machete or a human being? I don't know all the things that you can twirl, but it seems like almost anything

Lauren McCullough:

So fujimis is when you twirl on your elbows. So the baton is sort of rotating on your elbows. You never touch it.

Lisa Bodnar:

With your hands.

Lauren McCullough:

With your hands. You never touch it with your hands. Right. So it goes on your elbows. And then a neck roll, so the baton twirls on your neck. And so I could put it on, spin, go down to the floor, roll over the floor, and get back up, and it's still kind of spinning on your neck.

Lisa Bodnar:

Cool. And did you do fire?

Lauren McCullough:

So I did fire, but when I went to college, so I went to Vanderbilt and I was their feature twirler, NCAA said-

Lisa Bodnar:

You were a feature twirler at your college. Oh my gosh. That's amazing.

Lauren McCullough:

That was part of my scholarship. But NCAA came down and was like, "No more fire." I was like, "What?" Something about the fields and money, and who needs it for football?

Lisa Bodnar:

Arson. We'll just use machetes.

Lauren McCullough:

We'll just use machetes. And that's what I did. I just pulled out the machetes.

Lisa Bodnar:

What a cool thing. Why did you stop?

Lauren McCullough:

The Olympics decided they weren't going to include twirling as a sport. And so I was like, "Why am I doing this? If I can't go to the Olympics, there's no point."

Lisa Bodnar:

This was a thought that you were going to go the Olympics to twirl?

Lauren McCullough:

If they included it as a sport, yeah. I was going to keep at it, but they didn't choose twirling. They chose hula hooping or something like that. Right?

Lisa Bodnar:

Damn those hula hoopers.

Lauren McCullough:

So I was like, "Not putting in the hours. I can't go to... Nope, not happening."

Lisa Bodnar:

So did dance replace the twirling?

Lauren McCullough:

I took dance as a part of my training for twirling, and so I had a lot of background, but yeah, once I got to college, I picked up dancing a lot more and was on dance line for Vanderbilt, et cetera, but found a company that I really loved and so started dancing with them. And the interesting thing is I've never been the type of person that likes to be on stage. When they put on the costumes and the makeup and the lights, that's just not my thing. I like to be in the studio, on the ground. I like the work of it. So yeah, I danced for, I guess, about six, seven years. So yeah, it was a huge part of my life, but got to meet a bunch of cool people and do a lot of cool things.

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah. Tell me about that.

Lauren McCullough:

Yeah. So got to dance or Busta Rhymes and yeah.

Lisa Bodnar:

Really?

Lauren McCullough:

Yeah. Two famous jazz artists. I'm probably aging myself, but Kirk Whalum, who's Whitney Houston's saxophonist. And Dave Koz, they're both Grammy award winning jazz artists. Got to do entire sets with them. And then Maya Angelou did a set in Nashville and I actually opened for her performing And Still I Rise by Yolanda Adams. So that was the pinnacle of my dance.

Lisa Bodnar:

Did you meet her?

Lauren McCullough:

So I did not get to meet her, because they were late. She was so apologetic. She sent me all of her books all signed, and she saw the tape. She was like, "You're amazing. Thank you for doing this." So that was great.

Lisa Bodnar:

Lauren, you are super talented. Get out of epidemiology.

Lauren McCullough:

Right before I went to UNC, I was actually auditioning to dance for Beyonce.

Lisa Bodnar:

What?

Lauren McCullough:

Yes. Yes. I'd gotten through a first round of auditions and we were planning to drive down for a second audition and I got accepted into UNC. And so then it was like, "Well, are you going to go and get a PhD? Or are you going to see this thing through?"

Lisa Bodnar:

You could've been one of Beyonce's backup dancers.

Lauren McCullough:

And it's so funny because I was watching Homegoing or Homecoming, whatever it is, the one she did at Coachella, a couple of nights ago. And there was this little clip of this baton twirler that she included. So it was a dancer/baton twirler. And can I tell you, she was not as good as me. She was not as good as me. I was like, "I could have done that." My husband is like, "She's in college. You're so old compared to her." But I was like, "I was still better than her." So anyway, I was like, "Darn, I missed my chance."

Lisa Bodnar:

Maybe you and Beyonce could have ended up being a duo.

Lauren McCullough:

Hey, she can still holler at me.

Lisa Bodnar:

I'm sure she's going to listen.

Lauren McCullough:

Yes. Of course. Why not?

Lisa Bodnar:

If you could jump into a pool of something, what would it be?

Lauren McCullough:

Right now? Goldfish. Do you see this?

Lisa Bodnar:

Are those white cheddar?

Lauren McCullough:

These are plain saltine Goldfish. People think it's like, "Why are you eating that?"

Lisa Bodnar:

Oh, I love those.

Lauren McCullough:

It's so good.

Lisa Bodnar:

So good.

Lauren McCullough:

It's so amazing. I literally buy about five bags every week of Goldfish. My eight year old is like, "Mom, you need to lay off the Goldfish."

Lisa Bodnar:

So it's not so much for your kids.

Lauren McCullough:

No, no, no.

Lisa Bodnar:

When I'm working.

Lauren McCullough:

They have theirs. And I have my mom stash that they know not to touch.

Lisa Bodnar:

What about the cheddar kind?

Lauren McCullough:

I don't do the cheddar kind. I don't do anything but the plain, that they just taste like oyster crackers, five bags a week. It's ridiculous.

Lisa Bodnar:

What's your least favorite children's book that your kids love?

Lauren McCullough:

Good Night Moon.

Lisa Bodnar:

Good Night Moon is annoying.

Lauren McCullough:

Everybody loves that book. I don't get anything out of that book. I'm like, "Can we read something else? Goodnight moon, goodnight room." Okay, next.

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah. Mittens, kittens.

Lauren McCullough:

Yeah.

Lisa Bodnar:

Brush, mush. Yeah. What activity instantly calms you?

Lauren McCullough:

Cleaning.

Lisa Bodnar:

Could you come to my house? You'd be really, really calm. I promise. Thank you so much.

Lauren McCullough:

You're welcome. It was so good to meet you, especially in this setting. This is great.

Lisa Bodnar:

Thank you for doing this with me, Lauren.

Lauren McCullough:

Oh, yes. This was fun.

Lisa Bodnar:

This was awesome. I know you're really busy.

Lauren McCullough:

No, it's an excuse. They are all downstairs with dad.

Lisa Bodnar:

But I would like to see their little faces.

Lauren McCullough:

Do you want to see them?

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah, I do.

Lauren McCullough:

Oh, I will carry you downstairs. Hey, hold on.

Speaker 3:

Hi.

Lauren McCullough:

This is Austin. This is the baby.

Lisa Bodnar:

Oh my gosh. He's so big.

Lauren McCullough:

He's huge. He's huge. He just started walking three weeks ago. I'm like, "I need for you to walk for my back."

Speaker 3:

Hey kiddos. You all want to say hey?

Lauren McCullough:

Hello.

Jayden:

Hi.

Caleb:

Hi.

Lisa Bodnar:

Hi, oh, hello. What's your name?

Jayden:

My name is Jayden. This is Caleb, that's Austin. And then, you know her.

Lisa Bodnar:

And I know her. Yeah, yeah. I know her.

Caleb:

Hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi.

Lisa Bodnar:

Jayden, what grade are you in?

Jayden:

I'm in third grade.

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay. And what's your-

Caleb:

I'm in second.

Lauren McCullough:

You're not in second grade.

Caleb:

Kindergarten. I'm actually in kindergarten.

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay. Do you want me to take a screenshot of all of you?

Lauren McCullough:

Sure. Kiddos, you want to pick a picture real quick?

Jayden:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay. Hold on.

Lauren McCullough:

Let your brother in.

Caleb:

But Jayden pushed.

Jayden:

[inaudible 00:27:19].

Lauren McCullough:

Okay, kiddos.

Lisa Bodnar:

Are you ready?

Lauren McCullough:

Are you guys ready?

Lisa Bodnar:

Okay. I'm going to count down.

Lauren McCullough:

Come here.

Lisa Bodnar:

Three, two, one.

Caleb:

[inaudible 00:27:34].

Lauren McCullough:

They blocked the baby.