Aisha Dickerson, PhD is an epidemiologist who studies environmental risk factors for neurodevelopmental and neurodegenerative disorders. Aisha tells me about her long and complicated path to her faculty position and her tenacity in getting there. Her path includes partying in undergrad, being rejected by an MSPH program but convincing admissions to enroll her, receiving many rejections of applications for faculty positions, and landing at Johns Hopkins. Aisha was the mascot Blaze for the University of Alabama, auditioned for the reality show Love Connection, and can be bribed with carrot cake. You'll LOL with this one for sure!
Aisha Dickerson, PhD is an epidemiologist who studies environmental risk factors for neurodevelopmental and neurodegenerative disorders. Aisha tells me about her long and complicated path to her faculty position and her tenacity in getting there. Her path includes partying in undergrad, being rejected by an MSPH program but convincing admissions to enroll her, receiving many rejections of applications for faculty positions, and landing at Johns Hopkins. Aisha was the mascot Blaze for the University of Alabama, auditioned for the reality show Love Connection, and can be bribed with carrot cake. You'll LOL with this one for sure!
Lisa Bodnar: I want to see them, because-
Aisha Dickerson: My leggings...
Lisa Bodnar: ... your leggings are great COVID leggings.
Aisha Dickerson: I got this from Marshall's. And the text said that their retail was $98 and I got them for $11.
Lisa Bodnar: I think you would like following Bertha Hidalgo.
Aisha Dickerson: I do follow her.
Lisa Bodnar: Good.
Aisha Dickerson: Her stuff is chic.
Lisa Bodnar: Yeah. She is chic.
Aisha Dickerson: She's running around with the Louis Vuitton bags and the Prada shoes and I'm just like, "Hey, J.Crew."
Lisa Bodnar: Hello Shiny Epi friends. Welcome back to the show. I'm Lisa Bodner. I'm so happy that you're here. You can find our show on Instagram and Twitter at Shiny Epi People. I decided recently to start featuring Shiny Epi pets. That is pets from epidemiologists who are on Instagram. So if you're on Instagram and you have a pet, direct message me and give me your details. What position you have and what you do in epidemiology. Thanks.
Today, I'm speaking with Aisha Dickerson. Aisha is an environmental and neuro epidemiologist. She's interested in combined environmental and occupational exposures to metals over the life course. And their contribution to individual and transgenerational neurological outcomes like autism, spectrum disorder and dementia. Aisha has an incredibly interesting path to her current position as assistant professor in the Department of Epidemiology at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.
Aisha tells me how she went from undergrad at the University of Alabama, where she was the school's mascot. I'm not joking. That's actually too amazing to joke about. Then how she got rejected when she applied to her MSPH program and convinced admissions to let her in any way. She also talks about her choices after that, to find postdocs that fit. Her story is one of tenacity, risk-taking, confidence and imposter syndrome all wrapped up into one. I hope you enjoy this chat.
Hi Aisha. Welcome to the show.
Aisha Dickerson: Yeah, no problem. Like I said, I'm always just sitting here, doing a little on Saturdays. So I usually watch baking shows and-
Lisa Bodnar: So what do you watch?
Aisha Dickerson: Oh, The Great British Baking Show, Sugar Rush, Nailed It.
Lisa Bodnar: You watch Nailed It?
Aisha Dickerson: I love Nailed It because I think I would perform well on that show because most of my desserts taste good but they don't look good. Then I think it's okay. It doesn't have to be pretty.
Lisa Bodnar: I thought that the people on Nailed It didn't even make good tasting desserts. I learned that their desserts were ugly and they tasted gross.
Aisha Dickerson: Well, that's true. That's true. And so that's probably why they never actually let me on the show. I have put in applications and auditioned for a lot of different TV shows and I think I'm just too normal and nobody ever really wants me. Nobody wants somebody that's normal like me.
Lisa Bodnar: So which ones have you applied to be on?
Aisha Dickerson: I have tried out, gotten into the second rounds for Family Feud. So that was with my family, we did that.
Lisa Bodnar: And then why didn't they select you? You guys just weren't fun enough?
Aisha Dickerson: My mother isn't that a very fun person. And so, in my mind I honestly think it was because she was on the team and she wasn't very fun. But I don't want to blame it on her. So there's that. What else did I do? Wheel of Fortune is another one. Oh, Love Connection.
Lisa Bodnar: Tell me about that. Don't skip over that one. Just tell me what Love Connection is?
Aisha Dickerson: So they had the show in the 80s and they did a revamp. So it's where they pick a person and they set them up on three dates. Based on those three dates, they have to pick the best person out of the three. And again, I think I was just too normal. When I got the audition I thought honestly, maybe they just wanted the sexy nerd kind of character.
Lisa Bodnar: What did you wear? Were you like the sexy nerd?
Aisha Dickerson: Well, I wore something low cut. It was a green silk rap shirt and-
Lisa Bodnar: Nice.
Aisha Dickerson: But even then I know... You can see my face now, I don't really do a lot of makeup, just some mascara and some lipsticks. So I probably-
Lisa Bodnar: You look lovely.
Aisha Dickerson: Well, thank you. But I think they want ladies who put on false eyelashes.
Lisa Bodnar: Did you "audition"?
Aisha Dickerson: It was an interview. I had the interview with the producers.
Lisa Bodnar: Well, so what did they ask you?
Aisha Dickerson: What kind of guys am I interested in? Do I have any deal breakers? All that kind of stuff.
Lisa Bodnar: Do you have any deal breakers?
Aisha Dickerson: Smoking and married. I don't do married.
Lisa Bodnar: It might not be a deal breaker for a lot.
Aisha Dickerson: It's not. You would be surprised by how many people that's not a deal breaker for them. I'm no homewrecker.
Lisa Bodnar: How would they know that you're boring if you felt that that was your downfall? Not boring, I'm sorry. You said normal. I'm sorry I said boring, I'm sorry.
Aisha Dickerson: Well, normal can be boring to some people.
Lisa Bodnar: I'm sorry. I can't believe I said that.
Aisha Dickerson: They're asking me what kind of hobbies I have. And at the time I had just gotten out of, and this is going to sound crazy, pole fitness.
Lisa Bodnar: You mean dancing on a pole?
Aisha Dickerson: Yes, on a pole. But not in a sexual way. I think they got upset because they were like, "Send in some pictures of you pole dancing." And I was like, "No." But they asked me what was my favorite body part on a guy?
Lisa Bodnar: Oh my God.
Aisha Dickerson: Well, I guess it's not really a strange question because some people are like, "Arms, and I like a guy with a nice smile." I to be honest, I like a guy with a nice ass. That's what I like, just a nice ass.
Lisa Bodnar: Oh my God. I love that.
Aisha Dickerson: It was my last ditch effort to just go on a date. When you get to this part in life its like, "Oh, I've tried this. I've tried online dating and I tried to meet people out in public." And so, to just venture outside the box. Let's try it. And I've been on TV before, but not on a game show. I was on a show that used to be hosted by Bill Bellamy. It was called Who's Got Jokes. And so they had these amateur comedians and they pick three people from the audience to judge. And I gave my feedback. And my feedback as it is with most things is very honest.
And I think they really liked that. So they keep playing that episode. So you can see the honest little girl with the strong Southern accent tell a comedian that he was only mildly funny and that maybe he ought to consider another career.
Lisa Bodnar: When we first connected, one of the things that you wanted to talk about was what you called a long and complicated professional path.
Aisha Dickerson: I started college at 17. So when I got away from my parents, it was like, "Yeah, party." Of course I was involved in a bunch of extracurricular activities.
Lisa Bodnar: Yeah. What did you do?
Aisha Dickerson: Well, I had my sorority, AKA, that's the same sorority that Kamala Harris is a part of. And then my sophomore year I became the mascot. So that was-
Lisa Bodnar: Okay. I need to hear about this now. You were at UAB.
Aisha Dickerson: University of Alabama, Birmingham, UAB, go blazers. And the mascot is the dragon blaze. So it's a big green carpet costume.
Lisa Bodnar: That sounds heavy.
Aisha Dickerson: It is. It was very heavy. I had a bruise on my forehead from where the head had a helmet on the inside. And then I had a bruise on my clavicle because it had wings. Blaze has wings because people dragging. And I was really skinny back then, a 108 pounds or something. So it was hard to carry that costume. I actually got left in Kentucky one time because I had to carry my own costume. And this is the thing that gets me. They were male cheerleaders that could have helped me and they were like, "Uh, mascot, whatever." And so I had to carry my own costume. And in my trying to drag it to the bus, the bus left me behind.
Lisa Bodnar: How can you leave without the mascot?
Aisha Dickerson: Because I was just a nobody to them, I guess.
Lisa Bodnar: But you were just as important as anyone else.
Aisha Dickerson: I was more important than all the rest of them.
Lisa Bodnar: What was your mascot shtick?
Aisha Dickerson: Well, I was going to be on the dance team. The mascot got a little scholarship that was twice as much as the cheerleaders and the dance team. And when we would travel, all the cheerleaders and dance team had to stay two to four to each room. As the mascot, I got a whole suite because I had to take the costume with me everywhere that I went.
Lisa Bodnar: That seems like a racket.
Aisha Dickerson: On the very first football game, they used to have Blaze. Again, I say Blaze like everybody knows them. Blaze would come out on a golf cart, holding the flag as the team came in, right? But this year they decided that this was my first game, that instead of riding the golf cart I should run with the flag across the field with the football team in a green carpet costume in Alabama heat.
Lisa Bodnar: You were leading the football team out on the field?
Aisha Dickerson: Out to the field. Yeah, that's when they figured out something was wrong. So I was supposed to lead them out, but maybe half-way down the field when they were about to do the coin toss, I became a little delirious and started running into the referee and started stumbling around. And then as the football players were running past me, that's when somebody thought, "Hey, she stopped running. Well, is she okay?" And somebody asked me if I was okay. Now, one of the main mascot rules was that you couldn't talk in the costume. So I was just flailing around and I couldn't say, "No, I'm not alright." But I was just shaking the big mascot head trying to tell somebody, I wasn't okay. Like, "I'm not okay."
Lisa Bodnar: Why don't you just break the rule of silence?
Aisha Dickerson: I didn't want to traumatize and the children that might be able to hear me from a distance. They had to believe that Blaze was real. So then they scooped me up, the male cheerleaders and took me to the locker room. They ripped the costume off of me and they covered my body in these ice pads.
Lisa Bodnar: Okay. So did they have an understudy?
Aisha Dickerson: Yeah, I had two understudies. There were three of us. It was me and then two younger, less experienced mascots.
Lisa Bodnar: So good. Oh my gosh. I never thought when we started talking it would be like this. You are cracking me up, blowing my mind. I really, really like this.
Aisha Dickerson: So after undergrad, I worked for a science museum for four years. It was McWane Science Center and I was the outreach coordinator. So I would go out to schools and do these big programs. In addition to working for that science museum, I did the Miracle Program. And as part of that, I had to do in-home therapy for children with autism and respite care for their families. So after each of those sessions the parents always wanted to talk. And they would give me this laundry list of why they thought their children had autism. And I thought, you know what? I can go and get a degree to figure out why kids get autism. And so that's how I got into epidemiology. And so I applied for the MSPH Program at UAB and they saw my grades and were like, "No." And they didn't let me in. And at that point I knew what I wanted to do.
So I put on a suit and I went up to the admissions office and I explained to them, "I've been thinking about this. It took me a long time to come to this decision. So just let me in. I promise I'll maintain a 3.75 GPA. And if I drop below that then you can just put me out the program." So they said, "Okay. We'll let you start taking classes."
Lisa Bodnar: Really?
Aisha Dickerson: Yeah. They let me do it. Now, I wasn't officially enrolled as part of the cohort until maybe my spring semester. So I took classes that summer and that fall, and then once I was able to prove to them that I wasn't a total dummy, then they officially enrolled me in the program.
Lisa Bodnar: How did you convince them?
Aisha Dickerson: Well, there were some tears and-
Lisa Bodnar: You know what? I am never above using tears.
Aisha Dickerson: There were some tears and just a very passionate plea. And they probably thought, if she has no permission to come up here and ask then... And the other thing I told them is I'll be paying for these classes myself. It's not like you're coming out of pocket. If I fail, then you got my money. So just let me try it out. And it worked. And I kept my grades up so high to the point that when I graduated I got this nice little email that said, "Hey, you're at the top of the class. Would you like to carry the flag at graduation?" So I got to carry the flag.
Lisa Bodnar: That's amazing. So then what?
Aisha Dickerson: So then I worked at the health department for a couple of years. And what I learned at the health department is that I could only do what I was told. So I thought maybe I should get a PhD so I could do that autism research that I went back to school for. And the way I decided where to go is I just Googled environmental exposures, autism research. And the first name that came up was Mohammad Hussein Rahbar, the University of Texas. So I sent him an email with a copy of my master's thesis. And I said, "This is what I want to do. And I want to work with you on these projects so that you can teach me how to research environmental exposures and autism. Are you taking students?" And he said, "Sure." So I applied. That was the only school I applied to.
Lisa Bodnar: And did you get to do the research that you wanted to do during that time?
Aisha Dickerson: Yeah, I did so much research. It was a good decision. And the funny part is I had other students in the program that had other mentors that were just in school there because they wanted to be in school there, but they didn't necessarily research their mentors and what they were doing. So they weren't as productive with their research.
Lisa Bodnar: What happened after the PhD?
Aisha Dickerson: So I sent an email to [inaudible], I had met him at different conferences. I sent him an email saying, "Hey, are you taking postdocs?" And he was like, "Yeah, come visit Harvard and give a talk." Now, let me also say, I didn't realize he was... I mean, I knew he was at Harvard, but in my mind, I just wanted to work with Mark. I didn't care if he was at the University of South Florida or UNC, wherever he was. But he said, "Come and visit Harvard." I had no idea where Harvard was, which I think blows people's minds.
They're like, "How do you not know where Harvard is?" It's Harvard. How do you not know where Harvard is?" And I'm like, "I'm from Montgomery, Alabama." Growing up, do you want to go to Alabama or Auburn or maybe LSU or the University of Florida. People really wanted to go to SCC schools. Nobody was thinking, let me go to Harvard. And plus, Boston is cold and expensive in the South we're like, "No, thank you." So then I went up there to visit him, gave the talk and looked for housing. And then I came back a few months later and moved up there. So that's how I ended up with Mark at Harvard, stayed there for three years.
Lisa Bodnar: You've told me before that you had this imposter syndrome taking this faculty position at Hopkins?
Aisha Dickerson: Yeah. That's true. So thinking about when I started applying again during my third year of my post-doc, I had already had so many rejection letters. I could pull up a file from all the faculty positions that I applied for. And that was... When you were asked me for questions for Tim Lash, one of the questions I wanted to ask him is, why didn't you give you that job at Emory? I was perfect. I felt like I performed well. And when I didn't get that, when I [crosstalk] I was done. I didn't want to apply for any more positions and then Mark said to me when I was sitting in his office crying about it, because again, I'm used to failure, but that one really hurt me. And Mark said, "It's not always about being the best. It's about what they want. And if what you do is not what they want, then it doesn't matter if you were the best."
So when I saw the announcement for Hopkins, I didn't apply. And then one of my old friends from UAB said, "Oh, you ought to apply for this job at Hopkins. It looks like it fits you." And I said, "Well, I don't think they're going to pick me." Because it's Hopkins, they're number one in the US now. Let's disregard the fact that I was doing a postdoc at Harvard and I was just like, "I'm not good enough for Hopkins." But I just reworked the applications that I had and submitted in any way on a whim. And I just submitted it and forgot about it. And when they called, I was like, "Really, you want to talk to me?" So when the interview went well and I got the job, I was really surprised. But the funny part is that even after I got it, my parents were like, "Well, what about UAB?"
Lisa Bodnar: So why is it a good fit for you?
Aisha Dickerson: They're just doing things that I want to be doing. Everything just fit. I had a whole plan as far as what I could do when I came to Hopkins. And so when I got there, I just hit the ground running. I started submitting proposals within three or four months. I had stuff [crosstalk] and things that I could do. So it was easy. It was so much easy. And my biggest fear about going into academia was that I wouldn't be good at writing grant proposals. And once I got there, I realized, "Hey, maybe I'm not so bad at this because I have the help that I need to get it done right." So it's important. I have the support and to have the collaborators and people are nice.
Lisa Bodnar: And did they assign you a mentor at Hopkins?
Aisha Dickerson: I have a departmental mentor who is Michael Clegg. So I chose him because they said I could have anybody. And I said, "Well, he used to be the dean and I want to be a dean one day." So I want him to [crosstalk]. I want to be the boss. I'm going to go back to Emory and I'm going to be dean at Emory.
Lisa Bodnar: Fire Tim Lash's ass.
Aisha Dickerson: That's the plan. So I wrap my hands together like a [inaudible]. So Mike Clegg is teaching me how to dean. He's telling me all the many steps I need to take now and what I need to do to become a dean somewhere.
Lisa Bodnar: You're an assistant professor, Aisha. You're ready to start thinking about that?
Aisha Dickerson: I want to know the steps so that I don't accidentally miss something, but I know that I do eventually want to be a dean of a school of public health because I know and I feel I could improve upon a lot of things that I have seen. Now, do I know how to do those things yet? No, but that's what Mike Clegg is teaching me.
Lisa Bodnar: How did you learn how to write a grant well if you didn't have the experience leading up to that?
Aisha Dickerson: My PhD advisor used to always make me write a first run through of different sections of his grants. And of course he would destroy it later, but his thing was I needed to practice, even with writing manuscripts. I know a lot of students have trouble writing discussion sections, and the only way to get good at it is to practice. And so that's what... I remember the first time he made me write a discussion section. That was also one of the crying sessions I had in his office. It was like, "I don't know what I'm doing, why are you making me do this? Just let me do the analysis and write the answers in the results."
Lisa Bodnar: It's so hard in the beginning, isn't it?
Aisha Dickerson: And he was like, "No, you have to do it." Like my academic father. You have to do it to learn. You have to do it. So we did. And of course the first few times it was really bad, but once I got it, now it's like, discussion paper, boop! Done.
Lisa Bodnar: Nice.
Aisha Dickerson: Well, there are lots of tears through it, lots of tears.
Lisa Bodnar: I still have lots of tears. 20 years later, lots of tears. Can you think of what is the best piece of advice you've ever received?
Aisha Dickerson: Oh, the very best piece of advice. And I say this to students all the time to the point that they think it's something I came up with, but it's not. Bernadette Melnyk who used to be the dean at the university of Texas, I was working with her on one of her books. And so I would draft all of this stuff and she gave me her comments and it would be so bad that I wouldn't come back to it for months. And she would say, "Well, Aisha, are you done yet?" And would say, "No, I hadn't gone through it. I'm still trying to get over all of this read." And one day she said, "Well, Aisha, if you're going to stay in academia, you just need to get used to failure." Just get to the point where you hit that failure and you just keep working through it. You can't sit up there and dwell on stuff all the time.
Lisa Bodnar: You have a twin sister?
Aisha Dickerson: Oh, yeah. Well, her name is Asha. And we basically have the exact same name, middle name and all except that my name is A-I-S-H-A and she's A-S-H-A.
Lisa Bodnar: Aisha and Asha. Got it. Okay.
Aisha Dickerson: Her PhD is in counseling education. Well, she does drug rehab therapy.
Lisa Bodnar: I thought you were going to say she does drugs.
Aisha Dickerson: No. Not that I know of.
Lisa Bodnar: I was like, "I don't know if she wants people to know that."
Aisha Dickerson: Because we're twins and we've been constantly competing with each other from the womb on, it makes it a lot easier for me to compete with the rest of the world. So she has two daughters and they're my nieces. And then when people say, "Why don't you want kids?" I say, "I don't need kids, I have nieces." And I can just give them back when they get [inaudible]. So I can spend my money on showering them with nice things instead of stuff that they need, like food and clothes.
Lisa Bodnar: What's your favorite book or movie?
Aisha Dickerson: My favorite book right now is this book that I'm reading by John Lewis called Across That Bridge. Just all about basically techniques for trying to create change. And I had to buy a new version because I had an autographed version that I sent my mother.
Lisa Bodnar: No way.
Aisha Dickerson: Yeah. I met with John Lewis a few times. My godfather was a freedom writer. And so he knew him very well. So he was just around. Benefits of being from Montgomery, Alabama.
Lisa Bodnar: Sweet or savory?
Aisha Dickerson: Oh, sweet. I have a big sweet tooth. I can eat half a cake instead of dinner for three days. That would make me happy.
Lisa Bodnar: What's your favorite kind of cake?
Aisha Dickerson: Red velvet. And next to that is carrot cake. And I point that out because that's one of the things that my PhD advisor used to bribe me with. Especially if I knew I was in trouble and I was avoiding him, then he would say, "Hey, [Asty], this is why I've actually made you a carrot cake." And I'd say, "Okay." So then I'd come and stand in the doorway and he's like, "Come on in. Come in the office." I'm like, "No, I don't want to. I know I got in trouble." You can't have the cake unless you come in.
Lisa Bodnar: Okay. I hope the people who are listening, anyone who wants to bribe you, it's with carrot cake. What is your favorite Pop-Tarts flavor?
Aisha Dickerson: I've heard you ask Pop-Tarts questions and I honestly don't like Pop-Tarts. I was always more of a Toaster Strudel kind of kid.
Lisa Bodnar: Okay. Toaster Strudel, fair. This was so wonderful to get to know you. You are a crackup.
Aisha Dickerson: Thank you.
Lisa Bodnar: Thanks for taking time to do this Aisha. This was such a pleasure.
Aisha Dickerson: Well, thanks for inviting me. Just listening to your podcast I was thinking, "Man, if I had met her previously we'd probably be friends."
Lisa Bodnar: But now we can be, from here on now.
Aisha Dickerson: Yeah. That's true. When COVID is over I'll meet you in person. I don't know where though because I don't do SCR except... Well, the few times I've been to SCR, I just hang out in the lobby and make fun of people.