Noah Kreski, MPH trained at Columbia Mailman School of Public Health and now serves as Kerry Keyes' data analyst at Columbia working on projects relating to depressive symptoms, suicidal behavior, and substance use among adolescents. Noah is also very interested in LGBTQ health justice and anti-violence. Today, Noah talks about their choice to earn their master's degree and hold off on a doctoral degree. Noah wanted to share the feelings of how academia does not always make them feel safe and welcome, and ways that might change for the better. We discuss Noah's passion for making theater and table gaming, as well as our favorite drag names, playing Golden Girls Clue, and competitive gardening.
Noah Kreski, MPH trained at Columbia Mailman School of Public Health and now serves as Kerry Keyes' data analyst at Columbia working on projects relating to depressive symptoms, suicidal behavior, and substance use among adolescents. Noah is also very interested in LGBTQ health justice and anti-violence. Today, Noah talks about their choice to earn their master's degree and hold off on a doctoral degree. Noah wanted to share the feelings of how academia does not always make them feel safe and welcome, and ways that might change for the better. We discuss Noah's passion for making theater and table gaming, as well as our favorite drag names, playing Golden Girls Clue, and competitive gardening.
Lisa Bodnar:
I reached out to Kerry Keyes, your boss. And I said, "Hey, do you know any awesome MPH-er who isn't going on to get a PhD, but they need to be really fun?" She said "Oh my God, I have the perfect person for you."
Noah Kreski:
And I'm so glad you caught me in the middle of me making fully a game show. Whether you say, "Who's someone that's fun?" And I was in mid Pat Sajak mode fully."
Lisa Bodnar:
Welcome back to Shiny Epi People. I'm Lisa Bodnar. I'm really happy that you're here as always. The show is on Instagram and Twitter at Shiny Epi People. The show is at patrion.com/shinyepipeople. Today, I'm speaking with Noah Kresky. Noah got their MPH at Columbia mailman school of public health. Now they work as a data analyst for Kerry Keyes at Columbia. And of course you remember Kerry Keyes from episode one of Shiny Epi People. They work for Kerry on projects relating to depressive symptoms, suicidal behavior, and substance use among adolescents. Noah is also very interested in LGBTQ health justice, and anti-violence.
Lisa Bodnar:
I specifically wanted to bring someone onto the show to give a perspective on getting an MPH and then putting a pause on their training, but still staying in academia. So Noah and I discussed that. Noah identifies as non-binary, which they explained during our conversation. Noah wanted to share the feelings of how academia does not always make them feel safe and welcome and ways that we may change it for the better. Noah loves making theater, gaming, and debating and agile C laughing. They have an amazing sense of humor and insight into themselves. I hope you enjoy this chat.
Lisa Bodnar:
Hi Noah.
Noah Kreski:
Hi. How are you?
Lisa Bodnar:
So great to meet you.
Noah Kreski:
It's so great to meet you. I'm glad we can finally sit down and chat.
Lisa Bodnar:
Totally. So we have this thing In common where we like to make smart people do silly things.
Noah Kreski:
It just fuels me. It just speaks to my heart right here. Saying, "Yeah. Yeah. That's great that you're getting an MD or a PhD or whatever degree it is. Now come do silly challenges because I think it would be funny."
Lisa Bodnar:
Tell me about what you like to do to people.
Noah Kreski:
We actually just wrapped up filming. So it's called Task Time such that we don't get sued by Task Master, but it's fully a loving homage to Task Master-
Lisa Bodnar:
Love, Task Master. Love it.
Noah Kreski:
One of the challenges they had to do was just make the best noise. You have 15 minutes, you can use whatever you want. And people are saying, "What does that mean?" And people were going a full spiral, saying "What is best and what is noise?" And fully... It was just a slow downward spiral. Come to find out the winner is the person who did a full armpit fart noise.
Noah Kreski:
That was the loudest, most obnoxious version of that I've ever heard. One person ran downstairs, grabbed their partner, came back up and said, "We're doing a full 2021 remix of Cotton Eye Joe with a ladle, a metallic bowl." And I'm just watching the whole time, saying "Yes. Good, good, fantastic. We'd love to see it."
Lisa Bodnar:
Who were these people?
Noah Kreski:
Grad students, med students from Columbia. There's a theater group on campus and we're all usually doing any number of nonsensical things and I've had to get extra creative in the time of pandemic. So it's folks from all over Columbia.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. Noah, takes me back to theater. How did you begin-
Noah Kreski:
Absolutely. I have been doing theater for a decade and a half at this point, full theater kid, former drama club president from back in the day. So I was very cool in high school clearly. It went away a little bit in undergrad. I said "Oh, I'm a serious scientist now. I need to focus on that." And then as time went on, I said, "I so miss having something creative." Grad school can really wear on you of course. And I said, "I need something that's not just me and these journal articles, me and this research me and these numbers, I need something creative to compartmentalize a bit say, Okay, I can shut those parts of my brain off for a bit, go do my creative thing."
Noah Kreski:
And I was just so surprised that this group on campus, Broadway Haven Players, they were such a wonderful group. And it's so nice to see, cause it's really mostly med students who somehow have found time to carve out of their week to come and do full productions of things. And it's been so nice. Although I will say they like to do a lot of very serious material, which you'd think if you're dealing in medicine or healthcare, you want something a little bit more joyful.
Lisa Bodnar:
So what, what is your role?
Noah Kreski:
I have Actually for the first time taken on a role as a director, a writer, I'm editing sketches and this game show that you and I were talking about. So I'm really doing a little of everything. They were calling for the "Hey who has creative ideas that can work remotely?" And I said, "You know what? These are things I've loved to do. It's me. The answer is me."
Lisa Bodnar:
Is it a lot of laughter?
Noah Kreski:
I'm trying to make it more. So they love to do Chekhov and Shakespeare tragedies. This is really the review that people say, "Hey, that's all good. What if we threw a pie instead, that'd be nice. Something a little bit different?" This group was such a nice mix of people who love that and have so much love for theater things and also can relate on the other level of that's great. And also I have all this other stuff that I'm doing as opposed to people who are just all about the theater, are just all about the science. We love balance. We love balance.
Lisa Bodnar:
That's amazing. Oh, I love this. I want to see one of these performances. This sounds really fun.
Noah Kreski:
I will absolutely on Twitter be promoting it, I'm sure. So, absolutely. Please. Can and see.
Lisa Bodnar:
So you work for Kerry, your data-
Noah Kreski:
Oh, Ding Dong! Special surprise guests. AKA, I guess my roommate has a package arriving.
Lisa Bodnar:
I thought you are going to bring surprise person-
Noah Kreski:
What's that Charros at my door. Like the Peewee Christmas special. Just surprised.
Lisa Bodnar:
-You're a data analyst for Kerry. Is that right?
Noah Kreski:
I am indeed. A little bit of everything helping out, which I am more than happy to turn this into a Kerry Keyes fan podcast. I'm such a huge fan of hers and I've loved working with her.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. Tell me what you love about Kerry Keyes.
Noah Kreski:
I certainly had the benefit of, she was my thesis advisor, so it was working one-on-one in terms of that original work there and really just has been so supportive to say, "Hey, I know you're interested in this Venn diagram of youth mental health and LGBT stuff. I do things relating to youth and mental health. And as much as the LGBT circle of that Venn diagram is maybe not as strong necessarily. There's some but not a ton. She has really gone out of her way to say, "There are things happening at Columbia. Let's find those for you and get you involved with them." And so to have someone that's so supportive there, has just been really such a treat.
Lisa Bodnar:
Are you able to do your own analysis and papers or are you mostly working on things, papers that she or other students are writing?
Noah Kreski:
Yeah. There's certainly no lack of things that Kerry is working on that needs analysis, writing any number of things to get things from point A of the idea to point B of publication. So I definitely certainly have my hours filled pretty fully, but she has gone out of her way to say, "Hey, I know people taking study applications. If you want to pitch something to this dataset or to this professor." It's not as though it takes up a huge, huge amount of my time. It is really just, there is a natural ebb and flow to the work that I'm doing with Kerry. So it may be that there are times where everything that I'm working on for her is paused. And then I take those opportunities to then say, "Oh, what do I want to be involved in elsewhere?" And I have some time to carve out to work on those things. So certainly of course, working on what I need to for Kerry is the priority. And also there is some flexibility to be incorporating that other stuff.
Lisa Bodnar:
When you finished with your MPH, why did you decide you wanted to stay with the MPH and not move on?
Noah Kreski:
Cause I had really an undergrad approach to a lot of things. As an advocate and had been working in a lot of nonprofit settings. So I was with the anti-violence project for a bit, with the Hetrick Martin Institute for LGBT youth. And I was so inspired by the work that those organizations were doing. And there were so many wonderful leaders, so many wonderful advocates, but I knew that there were not a ton of necessarily people who were excited about the numbers side of things. And I thought, Oh, I can do that. That could be how I help out. So originally the plan was, I'm going to go, I'm going to learn as much number stuff as I can. I'm going to take that duck right back to help out. So certainly that would have also been the route, saying "Great, I have the MPH let's get to work."
Noah Kreski:
Me staying with Kerry is the product of me just being such a fan of her work and saying, "Oh, there is so much that I can be working on here." And I feel like I have a good number of skills already. I want to take the time, get some publications, get working on the topics that are really important to me that I'm passionate about. And then if a PhD happens at some point wonderful, but for right now, certainly I've been really excited for so long to jump in and be helping and be working on things that really are important to me. And I am just so fortunate that Kerry has really given the opportunity to do exactly that. So part of my thinking up until this point has also been just that I am however young and there is plenty of time to try all of the things.
Noah Kreski:
So at some point I would still love to try out a nonprofit setting and applied setting in that area. Sometimes the wheels of academia move very slowly. And I do sometimes yearn for getting back in touch with the various LGBTQ communities that really brought me to public health in the first place. But for the work that I'm doing now, I definitely still feel really wonderful about what's happening, but that feeling, especially as I've gotten better equipped with SAS and R and other programming stuff, working on a problem for just a little too long and then figuring it out, just that wave of relief of, "I did the thing I'm brilliant." You can't... The other day we were trying to recreate some numbers from a paper. I did a big one analytic thing. I got the numbers exactly. I was said "You can't tell me anything. I have the best there's ever been a programming. I'm a star, I'm a champion."
Lisa Bodnar:
You wanted to share some thoughts about being non-binary person in public health.
Noah Kreski:
Absolutely. So for anyone who's listening and maybe is not as familiar with that as a term, non-binary, it just means that my gender identity doesn't fit as neatly into boxes of male or female exclusively. So I use pronouns of they and them. Non-binary is also an umbrella term for a lot of different gender identities, a lot of different ways of being, a lot of different pronouns. So as much as I am thrilled to talk today about my experience that's of course not every non-binary person's experience. I'm happy to talk about myself, always happy to talk about myself. Always happy to talk too much about myself, perhaps, but yeah. So maybe let's start with research a little bit.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. Please.
Noah Kreski:
Just sort [crosstalk 00:11:36] of the absolutely. I mean, certainly a lot of the work I do is with young people and there is sometimes this resistance or this frankly, non-inclusion of the idea of there being non-binary young people, but we know that to not be true.
Noah Kreski:
We know that increasingly so, young are becoming even better equipped to have the language, to say what gender and sexuality terms, identities, ideas, fit best for them. And so to see survey after survey where there's just none of that, it gets a little disheartening. Especially I know that if I was a young person today and even back in the day, I would have felt this way to see on a survey item male, female, and then the space for something outside of that, it would have been life-changing to me. I didn't know the term non-binary until much later. And had I known it sooner it would have made so much sense. That language is so important. So in some ways I think there's almost a responsibility to be putting that out in the world and be saying to young people, this is a thing that exists. And if it applies to you wonderful.
Lisa Bodnar:
How did that feel in those moments where an assessment or a questionnaire says male or female?
Noah Kreski:
It certainly gets disheartening. It really still comes up when I'm submitting things to journals and there's not my honorifics. So for instance, my honorific is Mx. which is pronounced “mix” or just straight up the gender options are just male, female. So it makes me feel not necessarily welcome. And when I was younger there would be occasions where that question would come up and I would just not put anything. So then when people are talking for instance about data imputation, I'm always of a mindset, saying "Why is this missing, What is that young person thinking and feeling when that's not being answered?" and so it's certainly difficult for me emotionally when that happens. And I have such an empathy for other young people who may be in a similar situation.
Noah Kreski:
I think there is a collective effort to say, "Oh, we need to be doing better." I think the execution is still underway. And sometimes it can just fall to the word that gets used is male, female, other, but of course that label of other can feel othering. That's just by definition. Exactly. And so in terms of what is the ideal the phrasing I've considered is just gender not listed above. I mean, just speaks to the facts saying, "Hey, you don't have what I use, you don't have what I would put." But I do definitely think that there is at least some push towards, we need to be recognizing this. And so I think I'm hopeful. I would say that I am certainly hopeful.
Lisa Bodnar:
Do you want to talk about being non-binary in public health?
Noah Kreski:
Yeah. Certainly one of the things that springs to mind for that is just especially because most of the people I know or collaborate with are doing things with surveys that have samples of hundreds of young people, thousands of young people, tens of thousands of young people, if nothing else, I really just want people to recognize that you statistically have non-binary young people in your studies. You just do. They're not miraculously missing from your work just because you're not collecting that. So it's being able to be better collectively in capturing that and to say, "What are the ways in which I can make those young people feel supported and welcome." That's just really important. And also certainly I would love to talk a little bit about the day-to-day. I know we had talked a little bit. There are also things that we can be doing as a field to make non-binary people in public health, more comfortable.
Noah Kreski:
So for instance, does your venue of your conference have gender neutral bathrooms? And then certainly there are also independent experiences that speak to my own dysphoria. For instance, when you are at a conference, you have to dress quote unquote, professionally, but the more quote, unquote professional your attire is the more heavily gender binarized it is.
Lisa Bodnar:
It is.
Noah Kreski:
So it gets so uncomfortable. What is the outfit that makes me feel comfortable, but also professional. And I feel like sometimes with non-binary folks, there's this unfair expectation of if you're being formal has to be this beautiful, effortless androgyny, which is not on my radar at all. I most days look like an extra in a community theater production or frog and toad. Too many earth tones, too many sweaters. That's what we've got going on.
Noah Kreski:
That's what works for us. Just various things like that. Or having to balance how are people perceiving me or making sure people know my pronouns, but also the ebb and flow of, I want to be visible. And I want people to know this about me, but also these are strangers at a conference for instance, or a meeting. And this is one of the first things they're seeing about me. And so it can be very vulnerable, should be so visible in that way. And it just, all of these things play out at a conference where I should instead be able to just focus on the research that's being presented. So if nothing else, I would hope that people are thinking about, "Oh, how can I maybe be helping the non-binary folks I know around me." And if you don't have non-binary folks around you, get some we're lovely, you should absolutely be spending time with us.
Lisa Bodnar:
Definitely. So what do you wear when you go to these meetings?
Noah Kreski:
Yeah. I'm still figuring it out. Because usually the default is just, you know what, "I'm exhausted here. Here's a suit and a tie and I'll just be uncomfortable for a while." So it's not, it's not necessarily great. And especially as I am a heavier set person, so that adds on a whole other layer of fashion and clothing is not necessarily designed with my body and mind. So if I figure it out, I would love to figure it out. I will absolutely tell you before anyone else, but I might take a bit.
Lisa Bodnar:
Is there anything else about that Noah that you wanted to share?
Noah Kreski:
The only other two things I want to say are definitely... If someone trusts you with their pronoun stuff, again, my pronouns, are they and them definitely be everybody doing your best to respect that. It's just someone's inviting you to say, "Hey, this is part of me. And I would love for you to know this about myself and to have that respected."
Lisa Bodnar:
When people slip, what's the best way for someone to handle it?
Noah Kreski:
Sometimes there can be an instinct of people to have a big, long drawn out. Saying, "I'm so sorry. And I was thinking this." And like a minute and a half long monologue moments, no, this is the thing that's making me uncomfortable. And instead to just say, "Oh, I made a mistake, I apologize. The pronoun is this." And then carry forward. Like most people I know much prefer, I was wrong. This is the right thing. Great. Thank you so much.
Lisa Bodnar:
Thank you.
Noah Kreski:
Effort is so important to me and the execution we'll get there. I have faith. The last thing is just less so in [inaudible 00:18:38] psych Epi, but I definitely see however many neuroscience talks or papers and what have you, that really just boiled down to boy, brains are like this and girl brains are like this. And I say, "Okay, I guess when they were handing out brains, I don't get one. I just head empty. I just keep Halloween candy up there instead."
Lisa Bodnar:
That would be fun. So are people in neuroscience starting to make some changes?
Noah Kreski:
Certainly I, at this point, have I was going to say a bad habit, but maybe a good habit of whenever those talks happen of, and they open up to questions. I make the point of saying, "Hey, how does this account for generally speaking trans and or non-binary folks. And the answer is usually, "Good question, I'll work on that." So I'm going to hope that that is a genuine, we'll work on that. And not just them deflecting the angry, non-binary in the room.
Lisa Bodnar:
We can sound like you're angry at all. It sounds like, although it sounds like you should be angry, but you're being quite pleasant in order to make people comfortable, which sucks.
Noah Kreski:
Pleasant, passive aggression. That's the goal.
Lisa Bodnar:
What's something people might not know about you?
Noah Kreski:
Back in the day, I used to do competitive gardening.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. What?
Noah Kreski:
We would do, for instance, we would grow zucchini and tomatoes and we would make our own pickles and other things like that and submit to nearby fairs and other venues and I would win blue ribbons.
Lisa Bodnar:
Well, what did you win? Blue ribbons for what?
Noah Kreski:
What didn't I win blue ribbon for. Okay. I'm going to send this to you after. There's a photo of me with just an overflowing cornucopia of zucchini. That's larger than I am. And I believe I look fully like Ann Getty's baby.
Lisa Bodnar:
In the zucchini.
Noah Kreski:
Which I realize sounds like a fever dream as I tell it. So I hope this is all real and I've not just imagined that, but I'll get back to you on that.
Lisa Bodnar:
Please. I want the photographic evidence please. Absolutely. What's your favorite board game?
Noah Kreski:
There is a Golden Girls version of Clue. It's figuring out who had the last slice of cheesecake and you can play as one of the four golden girls, but then also as Stan, the hated X husband.
Lisa Bodnar:
Who do you like to be?
Noah Kreski:
Oh, of course I have a place in my heart for Dorothy. We love a quick punchline. We love a quick comeback, but I do a bunch of tabletop gaming stuff. And the game that I play in the [inaudible 00:21:16] style of Dungeons and dragons is called Monster of the Week. So it's inspired by things like Buffy, the vampire Slayer and Scooby-Doo and my friends all made characters and get to play in stories that I've written and that we make together fighting different monsters. That it's really fun. Everybody has their character sheet and everybody, they've really went hard with these characters. One person plays... It's a mashup of all of the Scooby-Doo characters called Ms. Terry machine.
Lisa Bodnar:
Which wait, because that's a mix of...
Noah Kreski:
Ms. Terry machine, the car mystery machine.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. I wasn't getting that at all. Go on.
Noah Kreski:
And it's just deeply chaotic. And I get to wrangle their chaos and have a lovely time. I set it up cause I like to incorporate other parts of my world into it. So one was set in a big lab situation, big science labs, but a biosphere. And they're fighting a big sentience plant that was draining people's memories. It was a whole big sci-fi moment and they had a great time.
Lisa Bodnar:
If you were a drag queen, what would your name be?
Noah Kreski:
I had this at one point in time. Because I used to have a long list. I think the most recent one was what you call miss Angela Sashes, because I was reading Angela's ashes. If I was on drag race, here's like my introline, "My name is miss Angela sashes and I'm one part miss Yvonne from Pee-wee one part miss Frizzle and one part miss Piggy. So I'm a pile of misses and hopefully few hits." So dumb.
Lisa Bodnar:
It is, but I appreciate it. You have a list of other drag queen names. You would be?
Noah Kreski:
It's really just like, it gets to a point where every loose unrelated noun slowly gets morphed into a drag name in my home. It's just one of those environments. At one point, my roommate said... I'd bought Pastina cause it was making soup. Because one of us was sick. said, "I'm going to be Sarina Pastina." I said, "Sure you are Matt. Why not?"
Lisa Bodnar:
Did you tell me you were going to be M plus?
Noah Kreski:
M plus? Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
I feel like if I had a drag queen name, it would have to do with classic games such as Silly Putty-
Noah Kreski:
Oh, I love that.
Lisa Bodnar:
-Solitaire.
Noah Kreski:
Ooh, that's some mystery to it.
Lisa Bodnar:
Or what about Hasbro Slinky?
Noah Kreski:
You know, anything could be a drag name if you just believe hard enough. Although I do know for a fact there's also just a drag queen named potato. So I've said anything could really be a drag name.
Lisa Bodnar:
What do you like most about yourself?
Noah Kreski:
Getting introspective here? My goodness. These are good questions. Thank you. The thing I like most about myself. This is something I really, especially the past few years have really prioritized and focused on is really just, I always try and make it a priority saying, "What are the ways in which I can be adding joy and kindness to other people's lives?" Because time is short. If I do nothing else, that is the thing I want to do. I want to make sure that I am adding to people's worlds and filling time as opposed to just killing time and all the ways that can make someone's day brighter. So whether that's a kind word or roping people into my theatrical chaos, always something doing well.
Lisa Bodnar:
You're making my night much better.
Noah Kreski:
You're making my night much better. My goodness.
Lisa Bodnar:
What's the last show you binged and loved?
Noah Kreski:
Oh, I've been watching Blink Empire. It's in the same vein as real Housewives. And it's people who have infinitely more money than they know what to do with. Throwing lavish birthday parties for their one-year-old baby and getting in fights over the dumbest things. And I just love some trash like that. It's a tangled web of people who collectively seem to have maybe two brain cells, but infinite amounts of resources. And let me tell ya, it makes for a wonderful TV. Do you like The Real Housewives show or not?
Lisa Bodnar:
I have something to admit. I've never seen any of the real Housewives episodes in my life.
Noah Kreski:
This conversation is done. We're through here. How dare you?
Lisa Bodnar:
I don't know that I've ever admitted that out loud.
Noah Kreski:
I expect your public apology in the morning. Wow. That's brutal.
Lisa Bodnar:
I know what's wrong with me? I don't know. I like other Bravo shows, I watched the hell out of Millionaire Matchmaker. Noah. It's been so wonderful. Getting to know you.
Noah Kreski:
It has been so wonderful talking to you. Thank you for having me.
Lisa Bodnar:
I love this idea of an Epi... were we saying it was?
Noah Kreski:
It was musical [crosstalk 00:26:39] ?
Lisa Bodnar:
Epi People doing ridiculous...
Noah Kreski:
Task Time, version of Task Time with Epi folks. I would love to host that we can do that even as a fundraiser for something. I'm sure people would donate to see people do silly nonsense.
Lisa Bodnar:
I just feel like my wheels are turning.
Noah Kreski:
Yes, and we love it. We love it.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh my gosh. Okay, Noah, this is just the beginning.
Noah Kreski:
It's just the beginning. I'm so excited.