Mercedes Carnethon, PhD, a chronic disease epidemiologist, is Vice Chair and Professor of Preventive Medicine at Northwestern University. One of Merci's favorite things about her job is helping people navigate difficult conversations and mediating those conversations. She talks about how she approaches such conversations, including how to talk with an underperforming trainee or employee. From Merci's years as NIH review panel chair and standing member, she is an expert in grant writing, and offers tips from the reviewer's perspective. We also laugh about Zoom school, RoomRater, black licorice, the Krebs Cycle, and more!
Mercedes Carnethon, PhD, a chronic disease epidemiologist, is Vice Chair and Professor of Preventive Medicine at Northwestern University. One of Merci's favorite things about her job is helping people navigate difficult conversations and mediating those conversations. She talks about how she approaches such conversations, including how to talk with an underperforming trainee or employee. From Merci's years as NIH review panel chair and standing member, she is an expert in grant writing, and offers tips from the reviewer's perspective. We also laugh about Zoom school, RoomRater, black licorice, the Krebs Cycle, and more!
Mercedes Carnethon:
So I had not heard the podcast before, because I didn't know how to listen to podcasts.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Yeah. And my fellow showed me how to do it. And then I-
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, nice.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Yeah. So I was finally able to listen. It was so delightful.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'm so glad.
Mercedes Carnethon:
-with Nur. I have not met Nur probably because she's in cancer, epi. She seemed so funny. So no, it's wonderful that you're doing this. This is really fun.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh thank you.
Mercedes Carnethon:
And now I know how to do it... Well, I see them pop up on Twitter and I'm like, "I wonder how one listens to a podcast?"
Lisa Bodnar:
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Shiny Epi People. Are you sick of me telling you yet that the show can be found on Instagram and Twitter @ShinyEpiPeople, and that I post additional content there. If you're tired of it, tough shit you guys. This is how I get my show out. We're also at Patreon, at Patreon.com. Share the show with your friends. It's really helpful for me.
Lisa Bodnar:
Today, I'm speaking with Merci Carnethon. Merci's research seeks to understand the role that health behaviors such as diet, physical activity and sleep play in health across the life course. The outcomes that Merci studies are, cardiovascular disease, obesity, diabetes, lung health, and cognitive aging. Merci got her PhD at the university of North Carolina at Chapel Hill in the year 2000. And she did a postdoctoral fellowship after that at Stanford University School of Medicine. Merci is now a professor and vice chair of the department of preventive medicine at Northwestern University.
Lisa Bodnar:
Not only does Merci have a major research program, but she also has significant experience in administration, including having difficult conversations at work and managing conflict. This is something that I struggle with so much, not just at work, but also in my personal life. And in this episode, Merci gives so many helpful tips. You may want to get out your pen and paper.
Lisa Bodnar:
Merci is also so committed to service activities. She is an associate editor at Circulation. She has numerous leadership roles in both the American Diabetes Association and the American Heart Association. But the service I wanted to talk with her about was her role as chair and as a standing member of the study section, kidney, nutrition, obesity, and diabetes at the NIH. Merci shares grant writing and reviewing tips, more pencil paper note-taking that you might consider.
Lisa Bodnar:
Penny Gordon-Larsen, who was my guest in the second episode of Shiny Epi People suggested I talk with Merci, based on their relationship working on study section together. I'm so glad that Merci could take time out of her super busy schedule to join me today. I hope you enjoy this chat.
Lisa Bodnar:
Hi, Merci.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Well, hi, Lisa. It is great to see you again.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, how nice it looks behind you.
Mercedes Carnethon:
I got a nine out of 10 from the room rate person.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh. Wait.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Yeah. The room rater person on Twitter.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes.
Mercedes Carnethon:
My analyst sent me a note and said that I got a nine out of 10 and they said... Or maybe it was ten out of 10, but they said in bonus points for the triptych. And I was like, "What's a triptik?" And it's this three-part picture that my post-doc took that I printed at Costco. So I didn't even have the false orchid then. And I just recently from Amazon... Even, does it look real? The orchids?
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes. It totally looks real.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Thank you. I've had a very obnoxious day because it's snowed maybe 18 inches. And so they wouldn't take the kids away from me. And I was like, "You know what? I can do this for one day." And I'm just so... My level of irritation is so high right now. You know, my daughter today told the teacher that today has been great. And she said, "Well, what has been making it great, Emery?" "My mother gave me popcorn and gum all day." And I was like, "You're killing me. Please be quiet because I try to promote healthy lifestyles." And I was like, "I did. I just left her with a bowl of popcorn at one... Because I needed to take... I needed to interview someone. There were a couple of meetings I had to do. So, no judgements.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'm always like, "Grab some Hershey Kisses. Go upstairs."
Mercedes Carnethon:
Yes. My kids talk to me. "I'm an extrovert, and I talk a lot and I'm so tired of Target." And they've been talking to me all day about inane stuff.
Lisa Bodnar:
My mine-year-old, can't speak to me without saying, "Mommy" and then waiting for me to answer and then talk to me.
Mercedes Carnethon:
No mine says, "Mommy, can I ask you a question?" Just ask- .
Lisa Bodnar:
Ask it.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Yeah. "Mommy"... I just want to eat one meal alone.
Lisa Bodnar:
I know. Just one.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Without people talking to me.
Lisa Bodnar:
I don't want to clean up the kitchen.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Can I tell you over the course of 11 months now, do you know how many lunches? And then just the cycle of cleaning the kitchen.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes.
Mercedes Carnethon:
I ordered school lunch for them and in the beginning because they're a little bit fussy. I would say, "Well, how was school lunch?" And then after a week of asking how school lunch was, I realized I don't care. They're in the 90th percentile at least for weight and height. So they're growing. I'm not making you lunch. So yes... No, I'm really looking forward to this.
Lisa Bodnar:
I would like to make your day a little bit better.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Let's end on a good note. Thanks.
Lisa Bodnar:
Merci, I wanted to talk to you about having difficult conversations, because I'm really bad at this. Penny Gordon-Larsen told me that you were so good.
Mercedes Carnethon:
I don't know about that. I mean, at work, it's interesting to have a difficult conversation because often it feels a little bit formulaic depending on if I'm in the middle of the difficult situation it's obviously harder, than if I'm advising someone on the difficult situation. And so it's interesting. I took a class in mediation and have a certificate in mediation, which is a form of alternative dispute resolution. And the reason I thought that it would be helpful to have that skill is that as a mentor and in my mentoring work and in my faculty development work, I do talk with a lot of people who are facing challenging situations and it came really naturally to me to start with, "So, what's the outcome that you would like to have, what's the outcome that you think is most likely to happen?"
Mercedes Carnethon:
So sometimes it's hard because people have been wronged and they truly have been wronged, and they've been wronged by somebody in power where the outcome that you would love to see, this person fired or this person embarrassed.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Yes. That's what we love to see. What would be an acceptable outcome, because by the time you get to how likely is it that this person will be walked to the door over that, that's kind of when the defeat comes in of, they're never going to get fired.
Lisa Bodnar:
Right.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Okay. So then what's the next best situation? And as an observational epidemiologist, with no interpersonal counseling training, it just seemed intuitive to try to get the individual to tell me what they think would happen to get them to the solution rather than me telling them the answer, in part because I could tell you, but I'm telling you from my perspective. It might be something that I'm comfortable doing, but that they're not. And so then it's just a series of asking questions and getting to the point, the core of the problem. And I think what I learned from the mediation training is that, you attack the problem, not the people. And how can we work together to address this situation? So it's really,
Mercedes Carnethon:
It's actually one of my favorite parts of my job. And if my scientific program were to fall apart, I would very much enjoy this interpersonal aspect of helping people achieve their best.
Lisa Bodnar:
Can you give me a couple of where it was actually you that needed to confront someone?
Mercedes Carnethon:
Oh my God. Let me tell you my absolute failure. One year ago, in confronting someone. It was ridiculous how poorly I handled the situation. Another friend of mine who was a department chair said that she hires someone to come in in the morning, get the kids ready and take them to school. And so the first year we had somebody reliable, they were wonderful. Year two, I was having trouble finding somebody. So I took this individual who, when I interviewed her, she told me a number of things that were, a little sketchy. Namely, that she'd been fired immediately from her last job and they hadn't even asked for the car seats back. And I was like, "That's $400 worth of car seats." They wanted you gone badly enough and they gave you one day's notice. And I was like, "But, you're probably great." But in desperation and with a pending trip the following week, I was like, "You know what, we're going to give it a shot."
Mercedes Carnethon:
Anyhow, she had a series of things where it became clear she needed to go, but I was having trouble letting her go because I was like, "What am I going to do? I have to travel in two days." And it took my mentor at work, Phil Greenland. And I was like, "Phil, what am I going to do? I've got to go to this AHA meeting. And the sitter is terrible. I tried to call her last night to say, I don't think this is going to work out. And then she talked me out of letting her go." And he was like, "Merci, sit down. You needed to fire someone who is taking care of your children and you let her talk you out of firing her?" He was like, "No, this is a firm conversation." And he said, "What did I say? When it's not a negotiation, don't make it a negotiation." And I was like, "That's true." If it's not- .
Lisa Bodnar:
I need to remember that.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Yeah. If it's not- don’t make it one.
Lisa Bodnar:
Even with my fucking kids.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Seriously, if it's not a negotiation, don't make it one. It was hard and it was harder than I had remembered to just sit down and say it. And I think the barrier that a lot of us put up is we don't think to ourselves, what? So before you start the conversation, what's the worst thing that's going to happen in this conversation? And quite often, it's not that the person's going to get up and stab you. Now, if it is, you know, you should keep that in mind, right? Like are they going to fire you immediately? Or are they just going to talk to you and ask you questions and/or argue back?
Mercedes Carnethon:
And in that regard, have you done your homework to justify your position? And if you approach the discussion... Many conversations, and it really depends on the situation who you're dealing with. But if you approach it calmly with the mindset of, "We're here to talk about the problem and how we can work together to address the problems so that you can get what you want, and I can get what I want." I think it removes barriers to what can be an awkward discussion.
Mercedes Carnethon:
I think with maturity over time, I'm learning to not react immediately. Because just last week I got a pointed text message about something. And I was thinking that I'm not really in the wrong here. However, this is a good person who sent this to me. This person is under stress and it's probably easier just to apologize and let things cool off and then try to present my rationale for why I had approached the situation that way, because it wasn't worth long-term offense because people have bad days. And that wasn't a position that I took even six, seven years ago. I think I would have been a lot more defensive. I think as the number of responsibilities has piled on, I've decided that it's most important to pick my battles and not get into little skirmishes.
Lisa Bodnar:
A lot of colleagues and friends struggle, including myself. We struggle with how to work with students or trainees who maybe aren't living up to a standard. How do you have hard conversations?
Mercedes Carnethon:
Yes, that is very hard. So do you remember the movie with George Clooney in it called Up In The Air, where he flew around. His role was to fly around firing people.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes, yes, yes.
Mercedes Carnethon:
And the approach that he used is, "I'm going to give you an opportunity. An opportunity to pursue your passions. Tell me what you love doing. You know, if you're not performing well or doing well, this may not be the right role or job for you. And to help you find a place in which you can excel... Because it doesn't feel good to come to work every day." You know you're underperforming. I mean the harder case is the arrogant individual who thinks they're amazing and terrible. That's a hard one, but a lot of times these individuals who are underperforming, they're not happy. It's uncomfortable for them. They start dodging you, not coming to work, skipping out on things, obviously missing deadlines and it's worth approaching it with the mindset of, "I want to help you be happy. I want to help you feel successful." I'm not a big fan of the compliment sandwich because individuals who don't want to hear it, will just hear the compliment.
Mercedes Carnethon:
I tend to think that it's probably better to level set this as, "I care about you, and let me tell you what I see. What I see is that you are not meeting the standards that I would expect to see in this role." There can be denial at this point. There can be tears. There can be a range of things but, "You're not meeting the standards in these ways. And I think you've got great potential. I'd like to help you think about something where you can feel proud of yourself and you can excel." So if you really just think about yourself as helping them reach their potential, everybody's got to have some superhero or some super talent, right?
Mercedes Carnethon:
It may not be anything related to epidemiology or research. Always just repeat to yourself that you're helping them reach their potential. Don't beat around the bush.
Mercedes Carnethon:
If I wanted to be a dancer with the New York Ballet, I just need someone to say, "You do not fit the phenotype of a professional ballerina. You are not flexible. You are not graceful. You cannot dance or hold a beat, but let's talk about what you're good at. You enjoy detail oriented work. Perhaps we could sit you in front of a computer all day where you type in numbers and then you can feel like a success."
Lisa Bodnar:
My experience just participating on study section as like an ad hoc member. So I've sat in a lot of different special emphasis panels and blah, blah, blah. And I find that the way that the meeting goes is so driven by the chair.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
By the chair setting the tone, by the chair keeping things on time, by the chair reigning in conversations that are going off the track, reminding people, score driving points are what we're talking about here. We don't need to repeat anything that someone else said. Did you feel like you were kind of naturally suited to do that? Were you watching other chairs when you participated and said like, "That works and that doesn't"?
Mercedes Carnethon:
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I had the benefit of serving when Penny was the chair, and being present and she did an excellent job of moving the discussions forward. And I also think what drives a successful study section is actually the input of the SRO upfront. So making it very clear what the expectations were and asking the chair to communicate them since the chair is the peer of the individuals in the room. But having that discussion and that expectation that this is what the point of discussion is. When we have heard all of the points, we simply restate the points back and then everybody can then vote their conscience. And the problem is, these have implications for people's lives.
Mercedes Carnethon:
I've been on the receiving end of at least eight to 10, not discussed grants, and it's unpleasant and it's really strange when you see comments that are like, "Oh, this grant is fine." Or you see a limited weakness and then you think, "Okay, well, the SRO should have demanded better comments as far as the weaknesses."
Lisa Bodnar:
Could you give a few tips that you've learned, not from your grant writing experience, but from your experience on study section. Things that maybe you wouldn't have known if you hadn't sat on study section.
Mercedes Carnethon:
So from the perspective of a reviewer, when I'm going through a grant, especially if I don't know very much about the topic, I'm using a formula to rate that. And I'm using a formula that says, "Is the study population adequate? Have they addressed rigor and reproducibility?" I'm essentially using the review criteria formula. So to the extent that you can make it as crystal clear as possible that you have addressed each of these things, you're making this an easier read for me.
Mercedes Carnethon:
So I think tip number one is to pay attention to the explicit criteria on which the grant is being reviewed and be crystal clear, and speak in plain language. I have a colleague who I have written a number of grants is NPI in the last few years, and we've been very successful. And what I've taken from her writing, which I think was different from my writing is that she speaks very clearly and in plain language.
Mercedes Carnethon:
And I remember from graduate school, there were times where I'd spend an hour... Not an hour, but you know, where it's been a ton of time on a sentence, because I'm like, "Oh, this is going to be beautiful. And this is going to be just poetic." And then I remember my advisor in graduate school saying, "What are you even trying to say? I don't know what this is." And I'm thinking I spent the most time ever on this. And I was like, you know what?... Because I didn't need to. I needed to present this as if I were having a conversation with an intelligent person.
Mercedes Carnethon:
If I'm reviewing a grant on Omics for you, I don't know what this means. I don't understand any of it. I'm looking to see, what I've learned. Are you replicating it in another sample? Is this hypothesis driven? If it's not, why is discovery important? So I'm using a formula if I don't understand the topic. And so please don't layer on top of it by using a ton of jargon.
Lisa Bodnar:
So Merci, you are clearly committed to service and leadership, and the number of society committees you're on and you lead editorial board and study section. Can you talk about that?
Mercedes Carnethon:
Yeah. You know what's interesting, a couple of years ago, I attended this Stanford Alumni. It was a Stanford Black Alumni meeting and they asked the question of, "Are you who you say you are?" They had us go through these activities to figure out "Who do you say you are? And do your actions align with who you say you are? Tied into that, what do you want to be known for doing?" And some time ago, I think in part... Because I've really been the beneficiary of such great mentorship and so much investment by so many people. I have been very committed to the idea of who I say I want to be is, I want to be a helpful person. I want to help other people. I have accepted long ago that I'm sort of middle average intelligence. And so I'm not going to get a MacArthur Genius Grant and I'm not getting anybody's Nobel Prize.
Mercedes Carnethon:
However, the way in which I could make a significant impact in the world is to help other people maximize their potential. And if my skillset is in being able to see the big picture and helping people organize themselves and interact in ways in which they can maximize their chance of success, who I want to be is a helpful person. So how can I help you? How can I help you achieve your goals? And so to that end, ever since then, and that was maybe four or five years ago, I have decided to pare down the yeses to opportunities that set me up to be in a position to be maximally helpful to other people. And also to recognize that, there's a limited amount of time in anybody's day. The question comes down to what is the best I can do in the time that has been allotted to me.
Mercedes Carnethon:
When I say I can review three grants in a day, that's a terrible feeling, but I can comfortably do two. And that's because I'm going to spend two hours reviewing your R01. I'm going to read it in one hour and I'm going to write up my comments in one hour.
Lisa Bodnar:
How do you do it?
Mercedes Carnethon:
Because I only have two hours per grant. If it takes me longer than one hour to read your standard R01, it means I'm reading slowly because I'm confused. And then as far as writing for an hour, it's not my job to rewrite your grant. I'm going to hit the big picture things in that one hour. And I literally have a timer to say-.
Lisa Bodnar:
Do you?
Mercedes Carnethon:
Yes, but I just need to hit the big picture to be as helpful as possible. So anything you say yes to, you have to say no to something else, which is why we always encourage people to have an individual development plan or a career advancement. Ask yourself, "In what way to saying yes to this serve you in achieving your short, medium and longterm goals?"
Mercedes Carnethon:
My goal who I want to be and who I want to be remembered for as someone who helped other people. So will taking this role in some way, set me up to help other people, or will it help other people directly, because that's what's going to bring me joy and knowing this, I only have this amount of time to contribute to it. So knowing that I have this amount of time to contribute to it, can I do the job justice? If I can't, it has to be, "This isn't the right time, no. If I can I say, "Hey, look, this is what I can give".
Mercedes Carnethon:
We were working on a big grant. And in the course of working on the grant, I lost my eyesight in one eye.
Lisa Bodnar:
What?
Mercedes Carnethon:
So bright light hurt it. Couldn't see. I'm fine. We're just working on a grant. And I just was walking around with my hand over my eye I was like, "I don't have time to get help over this. I need to get the grant in." So it wasn't until it was accepted by comments, everything else then I sent my doctor a text and was like, "Hey, can I come over?" And she saw me, she didn't even touch me. And she was like, "Let me call my friend who as an ophthalmologist to see you right away." I had iritis, inflammation of the Iris. You can't see, but I was like, "It's okay. I can type with one hand and I'm going to get this done." And do you know what happened with that grant, Lisa? Not discussed.
Mercedes Carnethon:
I lost my eyesight. And do you know what happened with the grant? It wasn't in the top 50%. And I was thinking, "Okay, the lesson here is, don't compromise your health over a grant because it may be the best thing you put out there and it may not be, not discussed. It was not discussed. Obviously I am still triggered by-
Lisa Bodnar:
Right.
Mercedes Carnethon:
I lost my eyesight.
Lisa Bodnar:
You want to talk about fun stuff?
Mercedes Carnethon:
Certainly. I think you've got fun questions for me.
Lisa Bodnar:
Merci, is there anything that you're embarrassed to admit that you like?
Mercedes Carnethon:
Well, I mean, no. I watch a lot of crime shows, but I don't know that I'm embarrassed to admit that I like FBI shows. I don't like cooking and I don't like vegetables. I'm very embarrassed to admit that I don't like vegetables.
Lisa Bodnar:
You are such a health conscious person.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Yes. Mm-hmm (affirmative) It's torture. I just choke it down because it's an obligation.
Lisa Bodnar:
And then you tell your kids like, "Broccoli's good kids."
Mercedes Carnethon:
Oh my God the carrot thing. My daughter loves carrots. She's like, "Here, have one mommy." And I'm like... Oh my God, I can't even chew a raw carrot. I'll eat them cooked. But I was like, "It's the worst." But carrots are great for you. And I think they're very important for their beta carotene.
Lisa Bodnar:
When you were a kid, what did you want to be when you grow up?
Mercedes Carnethon:
Oh, I wanted to be an author. I love writing... Or I love reading. I don't ever write, ever anymore. Except the grants and manuals of operation. But no, I love fiction and I love literary fiction. So yeah, I wanted to be a writer.
Lisa Bodnar:
Until you were how old?
Mercedes Carnethon:
When the Krebs cycle did me in, in college and human biology, I was like, I think I'm done. Maybe I'll go over to the English department and think about writing. But then I realized that my interest in medicine and health, coupled with my interest in writing could lead me to do research and I could possibly be successful. Don't tell anybody, but I mean the Krebs cycle really did me in. I couldn't do it.
Lisa Bodnar:
[inaudible 00:27:44] you were just like, "I can't."
Mercedes Carnethon:
No, I can't, no. That didn't even work for me.
Lisa Bodnar:
But then obviously it clicked at some other point.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Did it? Or did I avoid it? And I have memorized things. Physiology is fine. I've memorized things. But yeah, no.
Lisa Bodnar:
I remember in college when I took a biology class, one of the labs... So this was at UNC. One of the labs was... That I had to listen to bird calls and be able to identify the bird.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Oh my.
Lisa Bodnar:
And it was impossible.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Oh my.
Lisa Bodnar:
And they taught you little tricks. Like, "This bird, listen, like this bird says Peter, Peter, Peter, Peter." And you're like, "Oh, got it. Peter, Peter." And then this other one is like, shlew shlew but then once you're out of the lab-
Mercedes Carnethon:
Wow.
Lisa Bodnar:
Was that a Peter? I don't know, it sounded like a-
Lisa Bodnar:
It was terrible. It was like the five, most common North Carolina birds. And I was like, I don't fucking give a shit about these birds. I'm going to say the name of something and you tell me yes or no.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Okay.
Lisa Bodnar:
Hot tubs.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Last Vegas.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Nah, I've had a lot of fun there in the past, but I'm old now.
Lisa Bodnar:
Black licorice.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Oh no. Oh my God.
Lisa Bodnar:
It's terrible, right?
Mercedes Carnethon:
It's horrible. And you know, they put that... It's that same seed that's in the tea that's supposed to help you produce more breast milk. I suffered through that.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Yes. I suffered through that so that I could feed my children and they'd have a healthy start. And you know how I was rewarded? A colicky baby.
Lisa Bodnar:
Country music.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Nah.
Lisa Bodnar:
Disney.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Yes. I wanted to go on a Disney cruise and now I think they'd probably pay me to go on a Disney cruise because why as an epidemiologist, would I get on anybody's cruise ship?
Lisa Bodnar:
A 90 degree weather.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Microsoft word.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Love it. I mean, we became one during a dissertation.
Lisa Bodnar:
The movie Dirty Dancing.
Mercedes Carnethon:
I love it.
Lisa Bodnar:
Madonna.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Yes. She brought me great joy when I was young.
Lisa Bodnar:
Inspiring quotes in an email signature.
Mercedes Carnethon:
No.
Lisa Bodnar:
Do you know the people-
Mercedes Carnethon:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Do you know what I mean, right?
Mercedes Carnethon:
No. I'm recently sending out notices about appropriate use of email and clear, direct, succinct emails. I don't aim to be inspired. I'm trying to get some instructions. No.
Lisa Bodnar:
Pumpkin flavored anything.
Mercedes Carnethon:
Sure. Pumpkin flavored coffee, yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
The term impactful.
Mercedes Carnethon:
I don't think that's grammatically correct? No. Yeah. I mean, people always say I'm going to do impactful science and I don't think that that's an appropriate use of the word. No.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay.
Mercedes Carnethon:
I don't think that's correct.
Lisa Bodnar:
I knew that you would have a firm stance.
Mercedes Carnethon:
I have a firm stance. No. You can do high impact work. You don't need to turn it into impactful. Please don't.
Lisa Bodnar:
Merci, I'm so happy that we could talk.
Mercedes Carnethon:
I know, I'm so glad. I hope that we'll... Well, I'll come to Pittsburgh soon. I have a good friends there and have a little cousin there.
Mercedes Carnethon:
The last time I was in Pittsburgh, I never knew how beautiful it was.
Lisa Bodnar:
It's gorgeous.
Mercedes Carnethon:
It gorgeous. I had no... You know, you get this impression that you hear, like Steeltown. Gritty Steeltown. We showed up I was like, "What are all these green hills?" So no, I'm trying to come back soon.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. That's awesome.
Mercedes Carnethon:
I'll let you know when I'm there. This has been so fun. Thank you.
Lisa Bodnar:
Thank you.
Mercedes Carnethon:
You pulled me out of my bad mood from spending the day with the kids.
Lisa Bodnar:
Me too. You pulled me out of mine.
Lisa Bodnar:
And he was like, I'm not a cat.
Mercedes Carnethon:
I'm really not a cat. And I think everybody else's poker face was equally amazing.
Lisa Bodnar:
The way that the guy was like, "I think you have a filter on."
Mercedes Carnethon:
He was amazingly professional.
Lisa Bodnar:
And I liked how the cat's eyes were like-
Mercedes Carnethon:
-panicked. His eyes. That was the best. So that's the best. We keep watching it over and over. And it's funnier and funnier when you get into the details of the panicky look in his eyes.
Lisa Bodnar:
And then you like stare at the top person and watch that guy... He just doesn't even... He just straight face
Mercedes Carnethon:
Is he the other attorney thinking, "I've got this in the bag." Or was he the client who was like, "I can't believe I paid for this shit. I'm going to jail."
Mercedes Carnethon:
He's like-
Lisa Bodnar:
From a cat judge.
Mercedes Carnethon:
From a cat. He's like, I can't believe this.