Shiny Epi People
Shiny Epi People
Kerry Keyes, PhD on single motherhood and groundhogs
Kerry Keyes, PhD, substance use and mental health epidemiologist extraordinaire, talks single motherhood, trauma, groundhogs, and swimming in Pinot Grigio.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'm drinking a little wine because I was pretty nervous.
Kerry Keyes:
Should I drink wine too?
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
Kerry Keyes:
Yeah. Okay, hold on. I'm going to go get some wine.
Lisa Bodnar:
Welcome to Shiny, Epi People. I'm Lisa Bodner and I'm an epidemiologist at the University of Pittsburgh. In full disclosure, I've recorded this introduction four times because I screwed up the name of the podcast, calling it Shiny, Happy People, which actually is the song by REM that the show's title is based on. So, we're going to try to get it right this time. You may wonder why in the world, I'm starting a podcast while things are this stressful trying to work at home and manage three kids' needs. And in fact, I've asked myself that very question many times in the past couple of weeks.
Lisa Bodnar:
But in seriousness, I decided to start this podcast because I think while we all know many epidemiologists for their work improving the public's health, we may not know about many of their struggles and their triumphs or about their families, their self-care routines, their junk TV obsessions, their useless talents, whether they believe in the five second rule and their thoughts on honeydew. And I think it's delicious. So, you can fight me. They are normal people behind these by-lines of papers that we cite or people that we religiously follow on social media.
Lisa Bodnar:
And so, this show is really about revealing their humanity to make these giants in our field relatable. It's like the US Weekly magazine section. Stars, they're just like us, but for epidemiologists. Today, I'm talking with rockstar, substance use and mental health epidemiologist at Columbia University, Kerry Keyes. Kerry is an NIH funded investigator who's published close to 300 papers and is a really important person in our field. She's also a very good friend of mine. So, I hope you enjoy this chat.
Lisa Bodnar:
Hi, Kerry.
Kerry Keyes:
Hi, Lisa.
Lisa Bodnar:
Welcome to Shiny Epi People.
Kerry Keyes:
Thank you so much. I'm so privileged to be the inaugural guest. We're going to set the bar.
Lisa Bodnar:
I think it's probably CV worthy. Don't you think? Put it on your CV.
Kerry Keyes:
100%.
Lisa Bodnar:
That's what I thought. So, we have a big job to do today because Michelle Obama's podcast is also dropping this week.
Kerry Keyes:
Right. All right. So, numbers wise, who's going to come out on top? It's a numbers game. I get it.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. Yeah. So-
Kerry Keyes:
The podcast world is very competitive.
Lisa Bodnar:
I don't want to fully take the wind out of her sails, but-
Kerry Keyes:
Sure, sure.
Lisa Bodnar:
You know, just enough.
Kerry Keyes:
Okay.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. So Kerry, do you remember when we met?
Kerry Keyes:
I do ... Do you remember how we met?
Lisa Bodnar:
Do you? I remember, I think it was at SER in 2012, in Miami. Is that right?
Kerry Keyes:
Well, maybe that's where we met-met for the first time.
Lisa Bodnar:
Met-met?
Kerry Keyes:
But I didn't feel like I knew you with a hi-bye situation in like a group, but then I was on a Facebook group, Single Parents and Academia, for a long time and you posted. You joined the group and you, just an introduction, "Hi, I'm Lisa. I'm an epidemiologist. Here's my story. I'm going into this." And I was like, oh no, I know this person. You know what I mean? Like these Facebook-
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
Kerry Keyes:
... You share a lot of personal information. And I was like, I know this person. I wasn't sure that you knew me. I was like-
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, I knew you.
Kerry Keyes:
She doesn't know who I am, but I know her and I don't want to make this awkward. And I don't want to make her feel like her confidentiality is compromised. I was really-
Lisa Bodnar:
You're so ethical.
Kerry Keyes:
I was really at a loss for what to do. And so, I Googled your email and I sent you an email.
Lisa Bodnar:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). When?
Kerry Keyes:
I don't even remember.
Lisa Bodnar:
I don't remember.
Kerry Keyes:
And I was like, "Hey, I don't know if you know me, but I'm Kerry Keyes and I've seen you on SER and I just want to let you know that I'm in this Facebook group. I saw that you posted, I just don't want it to be weird. If it is weird, just let me know, but welcome. Single parenting is amazing. I'm happy to go on this journey with you." And I just was like, oh my gosh, how were you going to react? I wasn't sure. So, that's how I remember our meeting and you emailed me back and you're like, "Kerry Keyes, of course I know you."
Lisa Bodnar:
Totally. Totally. I want to talk about that specifically.
Kerry Keyes:
Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
The single motherhood stuff. So, I was going to say, that's how we really got to be friends and have this relationship outside of work. And it's something that I've really valued is having someone who is in a really similar situation as I am in terms of a high demand career in academia and single parenting.
Kerry Keyes:
Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
So, can you talk a little bit about how managing your career while single mothering changed? I'd love to hear how you do it, but what was it like in the beginning and then did it change as time went on?
Kerry Keyes:
Yeah. I had my son when I was working on my dissertation. Well, I was pregnant while I was working on my dissertation. I defended my dissertation and I had my son a couple of weeks after that and was married at the time and then kind of did the postdoc and then I joined Columbia on the faculty around 2012. And I broke up with my husband in 2013. So, it was year one of the tenure track this marriage dissolved. It was really, yeah, it was really tough because you were trying to figure out this new life for yourself and there are just a lot of logistics when it comes to divorce as you know. It takes a lot of time to navigate everything, all the different things that you need to do. Also, you're going onto this whole emotional journey obviously, which is a big part of it. And at the same time, you have to show up to work and teach your classes and mentor your students.
Kerry Keyes:
I was really fortunate because I had single parent friends in the department. The first thing I did is reach out to my friends in the department who were women who had gone through divorce and we formed a club called Hot Divorce Moms Club.
Lisa Bodnar:
Obviously.
Kerry Keyes:
Obviously. And that's a part of network, just like you and me, where it was people who were going through a similar situation and could commiserate with you and could help you out and could have your back in terms of department stuff. And so, that was really useful for me. And so, I guess the recommendation I would give to people, of course, who are going through a divorce and entering single parenthood is find your people. Honestly, being in Single Parents and Academia was a huge source of support for me. And then having friends in real life, online, all of it really made me feel normal and gave me a sense of I'm not going through this alone.
Kerry Keyes:
And so, yeah, it was very challenging at first, trying to find that new rhythm, find your new normal, trying to date, trying to do it all while you're on the tenure track. And it did get easier over time because you find your new baseline, whatever that is. And challenges come up along the way and life is different for single parents because you just have challenges that other people don't in terms of support and especially financial support. Being in a two parent home, affords you a lot different lifestyle, depending on what the two parents situation is. That's not a blanket statement, but financially it is really difficult to be a single parent.
Kerry Keyes:
And then in 2018, my ex husband died. And so, that then was a whole new set of challenges because when you're a single parent, but you're sharing custody with someone, that's different than when you're a single parent and it's 24 seven and there's no one else. And if you need two hours, you are paying a babysitter or asking for a favor or there's no weekends off. There's none of that. And with that too came ... Each part of my parenting journey, I guess, from being married and negotiating that, which is difficult, you're living with another person and in my particular circumstance, a marriage that wasn't working out, that was challenging. And now you're single parenting and you're sharing custody. That's challenging, but had this reward of every other weekend, you catch yourself.
Kerry Keyes:
And then when my ex-husband died, then it was additional challenges, but also additional I didn't have to share time, custody, anything with anybody. I got to make all the decisions. I got to do whatever I wanted. I was not constrained geographically. I was not constrained with anything. And so, there are pros and cons of each of those situations. And obviously, the one I'm in now is not the one that I would pick for myself or for my child.
Kerry Keyes:
What we learn about in grief therapy, Lisa, is that it's okay for good things to happen, even though a bad thing happened to you. And it's okay for good things to happen because the bad thing happened to you. And so, we talk about that a lot.
Lisa Bodnar:
I like that.
Kerry Keyes:
Yeah. And so, I try to frame the divorce, a lot of good things happen because a bad thing happened to me. And then my ex-husband died and good things happened because a bad thing happened to me.
Lisa Bodnar:
I love that. So, as you know, Kerry, so many mothers and I think especially single mothers have a hard time prioritizing themselves and their needs. And not that our needs trump all others, but our needs are important. But one of the things that I admire so much about you is you are really good at knowing what kind of me time you need, taking that time without feeling guilty about it. Can you talk about that? Because I think it's something that's sort of universal among parents.
Kerry Keyes:
Yeah. It's funny that you say that I'm good at it because I feel like with so many things, you're like, well, I'm not good at that.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
Kerry Keyes:
Other people are good at that, but I'm not good at it. And so, the grass is always greener in every situation, but I do think that I've always been able to hold boundaries really well. I don't give time to things that I'm not interested in or that are not I find enjoyable or worthwhile or important in some other way. Obviously, 24/7 parenting is not enjoyable or worthwhile, frankly.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh boy.
Kerry Keyes:
But it's like, I don't really have a choice. But I do think that I have never had the same guilt levers that other women do.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. I've noticed that.
Kerry Keyes:
I have no guilt whatsoever with taking vacations that I need to take without my kid, making sure that he's safe and he's in a situation that is great. And I'm really fortunate that I have, what is it called? Like a blended family situation. So, my ex-husband was remarried when he died and he had a child from that relationship. So, my son has a half-sibling and I get along really, really, really well with the mom of that child. My ex-husband's widow. Yeah. Sometimes it's hard to explain.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kerry Keyes:
So, the fact that I've had her and her warmth and openness to accepting me and accepting Aiden, a lot of people could walk away and be like, "You know what, I'm moving on, would legitimately be like, you know what? This was a terrible situation. I'll see you once every couple of years," or something. You know what I mean? But she is very adamant that he is a part of her family and he calls her parents mom and pop or something like grandma and grandpa-ish. You know what I mean? So, that's been, again, I think in all of this, it's like you've got to find community. You've got to find social connections and trauma and awful things are a part of life, are a part of so many of our lives.
Kerry Keyes:
And that's part of me is being a psychiatric epidemiologist is something I say to every single class that I teach is I can guarantee that every single person in this room has experienced incredibly stressful and traumatic life events and that most people in this room either have had an experience with a psychiatric disorder or have a close family or friend who has had experience with a serious psychiatric disorder. So, these are not conditions that are anathema to the human condition. We don't like to talk about them because talking about scary, traumatic things, whether it's divorce, parental death, all of these things are very challenging to think about. If you're in a relationship it's like thinking about what your life would be like if you weren't in that marriage, even if you're unhappy is terrifying for so many different reasons. And sometimes you make the choice to leave those relationships and sometimes, like in the case with my ex husband, you don't get the choice and you are faced with a very traumatic situation.
Kerry Keyes:
The more you have those connections, the more you have people in your life who are supportive, the more level ground, you have to work through your trauma. And it's not that you shouldn't have really serious emotional consequences to terrible events. Those are what are going to happen. And the idea, I get upset a lot at this idea of resilience, people say all the time to me, your son is so resilient because he acts "normal," or he has such a good nature or whatever. And I'm like, that's not resilience. Resilience is not the absence of traumatic emotions after a stressful situation. Resilience is your ability to me, and again, this is just my thoughts on it, but I feel like what is resilient is your ability to work through your symptoms in meaningful ways and express them and find people who allow you to express them in ways that are true to yourself and someone who's like, "Don't talk about it. Let's just move on. Why can't you just get over it?" That is not emotional growth. Emotional growth is you can break down.
Kerry Keyes:
My son, the year after his dad died, didn't make it through a whole day of school for a year. He would call me every day and say, "I just can't do it today." And that is resilience because he spoke up and he called me and he spoke his feelings and he said, "This is what I need." He would tell his teachers, "This is what I need. I need to go sit in the principal's office for a while." To me, that needs to be more of the conversation because trying to stop traumatic events is probably not ... Sure we should of course do that as well, but bad shit happens.
Lisa Bodnar:
Bad shit happens.
Kerry Keyes:
Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
This is why we get along so well, Kerry, obviously, because we speak that same language and we really value emotional growth. Let me just ask you, how do you manage work? How do you get stuff done when you've got a kid at home all the time? Because you're really good at this. You are better at this than everyone I know.
Kerry Keyes:
You know, again, I think it's low tolerance for bullshit and keeping my eye on things that really I want to be spending my time on. I really try to structure my day around the things that I want to be doing that advance the goals that I have. And so, I really do try to keep external distractions to a minimum, unless they're external distractions that I want. And it's not like you have to be a super producing machine. Some days I don't get anything done because there's a Twitter war going on that's really fun to read. That's okay. I have no problem with that because I'm enjoying doing it.
Kerry Keyes:
I did this exercise a couple of times, especially when I was early on in my assistant professor life because especially when you start as an assistant professor, you have no idea what's up and down and left and right and you end up getting pulled in a million directions. And it really stressed me out. I felt really anxious. I felt like I wasn't doing the things that I want to do. And my friend Mark Hatsune Buehler who recently left Columbia and was a faculty member in sociomedical sciences and a wonderful person and researcher, he told me about this exercise where, you read about these a lot in productivity manuals or courses and stuff where you make a list of the things you're doing and the amount of time you're doing them. And then you make a list of the things that you want to be doing and the amount of time that you want to be doing them. And the things that don't align, you cut out.
Kerry Keyes:
And so, I have done that several times when I'm really feeling overwhelmed and stressed out and you would be surprised, this is the thing that's actually really surprised me about academia is I had a lot of fear about going to my chair or going to leadership and saying, "I don't want to do this thing anymore. This thing I've been doing, I don't want to do it because for no reason except I don't want to." And I've done that now. And every single time, whoever the person in leadership is like, "Great. Okay. Oh, you don't want to do that? No problem. Well, sure." And I'm going in being like, okay, I've got my list. I'm going to convince this person why I don't want to be on this committee or do this thing. And every single time they're like, "Oh. Yeah, that makes sense. No. Yeah, you definitely should be working on this other thing." And I'm like, "Wait. What? I can just not do it?"
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. I've had this experience too, where it's like I was so worried about disappointing everyone and they were not going to "like me" anymore. And although it has resulted in people being disappointed, it's not like that's the end of the world. We need to disappoint people in order to set our boundaries and that's life.
Kerry Keyes:
That's life. Yeah. And so, that really has been a successful tool for me to be productive, I guess, or whatever, "productivity" is I realized that that's, I don't know, a loaded term, I guess. But rather than productive, but allowing me to do the work that I want to do and the work that I actually find meaningful and work with people that I actually find to be intellectually engaging and on the same plane as me. But I have very low levels in general, of anxiety about things I find compared to, especially my female peers who are a lot more like, "Oh, I'm worried about doing XYZ because so-and-so is going to react." And my usual reaction is like, "Oh, well. That's that."
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. You're so good at that. That's why I turn to you a lot. I'm like, "Should I feel bad about this?" And you're like, "No."
Kerry Keyes:
I don't feel that about anything.
Lisa Bodnar:
I know. It's such a gift. I love it.
Kerry Keyes:
It is a gift because no matter what I do, I justify it in my head of like well, that was my truth that day.
Lisa Bodnar:
Kerry?
Kerry Keyes:
Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
Time for the hard hitting questions.
Kerry Keyes:
Okay.
Lisa Bodnar:
What animal describes your professional personality?
Kerry Keyes:
Well, I'll tell you, my son and I play this game called Evolution and you get to build your own species and-
Lisa Bodnar:
That's so nerdy.
Kerry Keyes:
It's so nerdy, but it's really fun. It's a great game. You get to build your own species and you get to have different qualities. You get to assign your different species qualities and those qualities come with pros and cons. I'm just thinking through the qualities of an animal that I think best describe me, which are not one single animal. I want to take from different animals, but I think I'm a-
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, this is so academic. Well, it depends on [crosstalk 00:19:35] and I'm like this sometimes, but I'm like this other times.
Kerry Keyes:
I think I'm a burrower.
Lisa Bodnar:
What?
Kerry Keyes:
I'm a burrower. Like the animals that burrow.
Lisa Bodnar:
Like a groundhog?
Kerry Keyes:
Yeah. Like an animal that burrows. I burrow in, you know what I mean? I go all in if it's a topic that I'm interested in or a research, whatever, or collaboration, I'm so all in and I go deep. I'm like, let's get to it. Let's get to the root of it. I want to know every single paper on this topic. I want to know everything. And I'm also like a burrower in terms of niche, you know what I mean? I try to create an environment that is safe and warm and everyone feels loved and if any animal in the colony is not feeling the vibe of love, I push that animal, I'm like, " You got to go." And so, I think I'm a groundhog.
Lisa Bodnar:
What do you think is the single best day on the calendar?
Kerry Keyes:
September 30th or I want an early October day. I want the day it's sweater weather. There's a crisp in the air. I live in New York City. New York City is the best city in the world, obviously. Everybody knows that, but walking around New York on a fall day, there literally is no place in the world I want to be than that.
Lisa Bodnar:
Who knows you the best?
Kerry Keyes:
Definitely my son knows me the best. And also, I have to say, I have five best friends, women, professional women, my age and they know me. No one calls me on my junk like these five women, if they were listening to this podcast, they'd be like, "You want to know the real story of this woman?"
Lisa Bodnar:
I thought you were telling me the real story.
Kerry Keyes:
It's my story.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay.
Kerry Keyes:
It's how I see myself. But these five women, they've known me for 20 years. I talk to all of them every single day. They know me better than anyone.
Lisa Bodnar:
That's lovely. I love that. If you could swim in any liquid, what would it be and why?
Kerry Keyes:
Pinot Grigio.
Lisa Bodnar:
That's awesome. I didn't even think about that. Our lightening round.
Kerry Keyes:
Okay.
Lisa Bodnar:
Favorite cheese?
Kerry Keyes:
Cheddar.
Lisa Bodnar:
Drink of choice?
Kerry Keyes:
Seltzer.
Lisa Bodnar:
Go-to salad dressing?
Kerry Keyes:
A balsamic. Something light. I don't like creamy dressings.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. That's good to know.
Kerry Keyes:
And let me tell you something, Lisa, I'm from Minnesota where ranch dressing, people in Minnesota put ranch dressing on everything. They put ranch dressing on french fries, they put ranch ... And I didn't like ranch dressing and it was an issue. It was an issue. I like oil based dressings, light ones.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay, good. I'm glad to know you're passionate about that.
Kerry Keyes:
I am.
Lisa Bodnar:
Please sing four lines of any song. Go.
Kerry Keyes:
Okay. Here's one. This is a song that's been in my head all day, but I'll give you the context for it is that yesterday I was meeting with a doctoral student who's finishing his dissertation and he's doing a mediation dissertation. And I was like, "I don't understand. A is associated with B and B is associated with C, but you're telling me that B does not mediate the relationship between A and C? How is that possible, right?" And so, we're having this discussion and then I stopped everyone, I was like, "Did anybody read Chicka Chicka Boom Boom to their kids when they were a little?"
Lisa Bodnar:
100%.
Kerry Keyes:
100%?
Lisa Bodnar:
I love that book.
Kerry Keyes:
Then I was like, "A told B and B told C, I'll meet you at the top of the coconut tree. "Wee" said D to E, F, G. I'll meet you at the top of the coconut tree." And so, I started singing that song.
Lisa Bodnar:
Favorite ice cream flavor?
Kerry Keyes:
Mint chocolate chip.
Lisa Bodnar:
Least favorite food?
Kerry Keyes:
Cream. Anything creamy.
Lisa Bodnar:
If you found a starfish in your toilet, what would you do?
Kerry Keyes:
Flush it.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh.
Kerry Keyes:
I don't want a starfish in my toilet.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. How many donuts could you eat in one sitting?
Kerry Keyes:
Five.
Lisa Bodnar:
Wow. That was a quick answer. Okay. If you were a fart, would you rather be loud and proud or the silent, but the deadly type?
Kerry Keyes:
Oh, loud and proud.
Lisa Bodnar:
Nice.
Kerry Keyes:
You know me.
Lisa Bodnar:
I know. That would be my answer too. I'm totally loud, but proud. Kerry, thank you for talking to me today.
Kerry Keyes:
Thank you, Lisa. Thank you for having me on and I wish all the best of luck with this podcast. I will be a subscriber, a listener.
Lisa Bodnar:
No. Rate it. I think you've got to rate it.
Kerry Keyes:
I'll rate it. I'm going to rate it. I'm going to do all the things and I can't wait to hear from everybody else.
Lisa Bodnar:
Thank you.
Lisa Bodnar:
So, thanks to Kerry Keyes for talking to me today. Thank you to Matt Fox for the motivation and the advice for starting this show and thanks to Abby Diaz for suggesting the great name of the show. Thank you for listening. Talk to you soon.
Kerry Keyes:
You're a groundhog like me.
Lisa Bodnar:
When you said that I almost died.
Kerry Keyes:
I'm a groundhog. Like a burrow.
Lisa Bodnar:
I was going to say a shark or something at the top of the food chain.
Kerry Keyes:
No way, man. No. And I'm going to tell you something else. In Evolution, these are the animals that win. The burrowers, if you can get underground and you can hide from predators and you can just do your thing and create safe, loving environments for everyone, you survive the longest.
