Shiny Epi People
Shiny Epi People
Bonnie Swenor, PhD on visibility of disabled people and veggie party trays
Bonnie Swenor is an epidemiologist and associate professor at The Johns Hopkins Wilmer Eye Institute and the Epidemiology Department at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. She is the founder and director of the Johns Hopkins Disability Health Research Center, which addresses health inequities for people with disabilities. Bonnie's career is motivated by her personal experience with visual impairment, and today she shares with me how her visual impairment has shaped her personal and professional lives, how we can avoid erasing disabled people, the social model of disability, veggie party trays, being on the college boxing team, and more!
Bonnie Swenor:
I think my life is so boring. That's why I think this is so funny. I say to my husband all the time, like I like vanilla ice cream and plain cheese pizza. Like that's what I say. I'm the most boring person I know.
Lisa Bodnar:
Well, I wouldn't have invited you here if I thought you were boring.
Lisa Bodnar:
Hi friends. Welcome back to Shiny Epi People. I'm Lisa Bodnar and I am so happy that you are here and allowing me to spend 30 minutes with you talking with my guest. You can find us on Instagram and Twitter at Shiny Epi People. I'm not on Facebook because you know what? Facebook sucks. And of course, if you would like to become a patron of the show, please go to patreon.com/shinyepipeople. I really appreciate the 50 people who have donated from a little amount every month to a good amount every month. Thank you for putting your trust in me. Today's show is with Bonnie Swenor. Bonnie is an epidemiologist and associate professor at the Johns Hopkins Wilmer Eye Institute and the epidemiology department at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. She is founder and director of the Johns Hopkins Disability Health Research Center. The center addresses health inequities for people with disabilities and aims to shift the paradigm from living with a disability to thriving with a disability.
Lisa Bodnar:
The center focuses on establishing evidence, developing strategies, and shaping policy to maximize health, inclusion, and equity for people with all types of disabilities. Bonnie's career is motivated by her personal experience with visual impairment. And today she shares with me how her visual impairment has shaped her personal and professional lives. I'm so grateful that she was incredibly vulnerable and open in our interview. She taught me so many things that I found confusing online about the disabled community. And I'm sure you're going to learn a lot from her too. In particular, Bonnie shared with me how recognizing people in person or on Zoom is hard for her. I forgot to ask her the best and most comfortable way that people could be inclusive of her visual impairment when they see her. And so I reached out to Bonnie after our interview and asked how people should introduce themselves to her. And she said, just announce who you are. Start by saying something like, “This is Lisa. I think, blah, blah, blah.” Or something to that effect. In very inclusive spaces, people will give a visual description of themselves. For instance, “I'm Lisa Bodnar a middle-aged, white woman with shoulder length, brown hair wearing a white blouse and a navy jacket sitting in front of a gray wall.” So please keep this in mind. Lastly, Bonnie's center has a podcast called Included. You may want to check that out. I hope you enjoy this chat.
Lisa Bodnar:
Hi Bonnie.
Bonnie Swenor:
Hi.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'm so excited that you're here, that I get a chance to meet you.
Bonnie Swenor:
Yeah. Thank you so much.
Lisa Bodnar:
You've written and spoken about your visual impairment. What were you interested in sharing with listeners about your personal story?
Bonnie Swenor:
My vision loss has certainly defined my life in lots of ways, good and bad. So let me be clear about that. I started losing my vision in 2005 right as I was applying to graduate school.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh wow.
Bonnie Swenor:
And in fact, a week after I mailed out my applications to the MPH programs. So I suddenly had a drastic change in vision in my right eye. Honestly, as I was headed to work in DC at a science consulting firm, I was walking up the metro steps and-
Lisa Bodnar:
Those long steps.
Bonnie Swenor:
Yeah, exactly. All of a sudden, I had an instant change in vision in my right eye. I didn't know what it was at first. Eventually I figured it all out and realized it was a degenerative retinal disease. And I've continued to lose vision since then.
Lisa Bodnar:
Only in one eye?
Bonnie Swenor:
No, now it has progressed. So it's progressed, I lose a little more vision every year. And it's in both eyes. I took a pause from moving forward with grad school as I tried to figure out life. I had to stop driving not too long after I started to lose my vision. It was a pretty rapid decline at the start. And so I went on disability leave from work. Didn't think I wouldn't be able to go to grad school at the start.
Lisa Bodnar:
What was that like?
Bonnie Swenor:
It was very tough. Something I'd honestly dreamed of doing and worked really hard to get towards ... you know, really dark days admittedly. Days, honestly, that I've spoken publicly I didn't think I wanted to continue life.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
Bonnie Swenor:
And not knowing that I could still do all the things that I would want to do. I didn't know anyone like me with a disability. I didn't know anyone that had a vision impairment or was blind that was a scientist. I didn't ... you know, it's hard to be what you can't see. And I understand the irony of that comment, but for someone like me-
Lisa Bodnar:
I was going to keep my mouth shut.
Bonnie Swenor:
No, no I appreciate those jokes. But I think one day I sort of just decided that this couldn't be it. I'd worked too hard and I'd have to figure it out. And quite honestly, I think I got to a place where I said, what do I really have to lose?
Lisa Bodnar:
How does your visual impairment affect your day-to-day life, if you wouldn't mind sharing that?
Bonnie Swenor:
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. I think a lot of people perceive vision loss in sort of two ways. Either as ... in ophthalmology, it's called no light perception, meaning you see complete blindness, right? Certainly there's lots of folks like that. That's not what I have. Or lots of people will say, oh, I'm visually impaired too. I need glasses or I wear glasses. That's not exactly the same thing. So the type of vision impairment that in ophthalmology and language is vision loss that can't be corrected with eyeglasses. Right? That's what I've got. And so for me, my vision is impaired centrally. So the central fields and the central part of my vision is ... it looks, it's confusing visual images, right? My retina is bumpy in the back, I guess you can say. And so it's like looking in a fun house mirror, everything's wavy and distorted in the center.
Bonnie Swenor:
My peripheral vision is clear or is not impaired. So your face is not clear to me. Recognizing people is a constant struggle for me. I use a complex algorithm in my head of how I identify someone-
Lisa Bodnar:
Do you?
Bonnie Swenor:
I do. And I think about it always. I kind of geek out on it-
Lisa Bodnar:
Can you tell me?
Bonnie Swenor:
Yeah, so I really had to train myself to do this. So if someone's approaching me, I can't see the features of their face, but I can see other things like about how tall they are, their hair color, their hair shape and style. The cadence of their walk tells me a lot, the way they carry themselves in general. If they say something, obviously their voice can be telling, the context in which I'm seeing that individual, you know, all those things. I can make a quick calculation to determine who is in front of me or who is talking to me. You know, I struggle when one of those variables are different. So like if I see a colleague at Target, which obviously isn't happening during the pandemic, it takes me a little longer. Right. They're in a different context, that variable is different. Right? Versus if I see them in the hallway at work, like that variable makes sense.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. Yeah. You have little kids, right?
Bonnie Swenor:
I do. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Four and seven.
Lisa Bodnar:
So what do your kids understand about your visual impairment? And is that a challenge?
Bonnie Swenor:
My little one, I think doesn't ... just starting to, I think around five is when, just based on my older child is, one, I think understanding that mom's a little bit different takes hold. It's kind of an interesting change, right? A beautiful, yet interesting, yet hard change. So for my daughter, she will constantly bring flashlights and things over to me and say, does this help, mom? Can you see better, mom, with this? But it also sort of goes back and forth with some frustration and anger. You know, since I don't drive anymore, she'll say things like, I don't want to be home alone with mom. She can't drive us to the zoo. My significant other has a response to that and gets frustrated. And I say she's allowed to be frustrated. It's not fair. And we've got to let her express that and talk about that. And that's real. It still hurts, right? It's hard to listen to. But it's hard as a parent to serve that role. I think sometimes trying to raise them in a way to understand that mom is different, but lots of people are different, and that doesn't mean we're lesser in any way. That's the opportunity and the challenge, I guess I would say.
Lisa Bodnar:
What opportunities has it provided for you personally or you professionally, I guess?
Bonnie Swenor:
Disability is part of my identity. There is lots of benefit. I think the research that I do not only with individuals that have vision impairment, but more broadly people with disabilities, I get it. Right? I understand it. I'm part of that community. And I think just like in this moment, we're understanding the need to do research, joining forces with the communities we're studying really has to be the starting point. I think that I am constantly advocating for that, but I think I've better opportunity sometimes to make those connections. You know, I also am studying my life in lots of ways, right? Every day, all day, I'm thinking, oh, that's frustrating. Or that seems not right. Or that's a barrier. What can we do to address that inequity? Or what can we do to think about this differently and change this? I feel lucky to see all sides of that. Not only the problem, but how do we use data and science and public health to address that?
Lisa Bodnar:
How did you decide or what motivated you to just get up and say, I'm still going to go to graduate school?
Bonnie Swenor:
Yeah. I do think about this a lot. You know, I think about what makes someone successful. Not that I'm going to put them that category.
Lisa Bodnar:
You are. You're incredibly successful.
Bonnie Swenor:
No, no, I don't know that's true. You know, I see this all the time in my work, right? So you can have two people with the exact same levels of vision impairment. And one is like a Supreme Court justice. And one person is having a really hard time in their every day. And the question is why? Personality, I think does have a lot to do with it. The people around them. You know, for me, I do. I think about this a lot. My start to life was not easy. I'll be frank and try not to cry.
Lisa Bodnar:
You can cry if you want. We're open here.
Bonnie Swenor:
It's supposed to be a funny podcast. I'm not your funniest guest.
Lisa Bodnar:
We'll get there.
Bonnie Swenor:
I'm not funny at all.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes, you are. You're lovely. And you're vulnerable and revealing. We're going to get to the funny Bonnie, just you wait. But also, if you don't want to share, please don't.
Bonnie Swenor:
No, it's fine. I'm happy to share because it's real and I think people ... I sometimes worry when I've talked about my life, I have compartmentalized it into this section. I have a little bit of guilt about not sharing all of it in that, you know, it is really hard. Like I don't want this to be looked at as this has been an easy road. It hasn't. I often think that everything in my life has prepared me for this in a strange way. I grew up in a very tough house with ... you know, it was ... I was lucky to get through.
Lisa Bodnar:
Wow.
Bonnie Swenor:
Right? And it prepared me to be resourceful. Honestly, my ticket out of my house, which was full of abuse and my parents struggled ... struggle with substance misuse and all of those things. And I leaned hard into education. And I know that sounds super corny.
Lisa Bodnar:
No.
Bonnie Swenor:
But that was always my ticket out. And so when things got real rough, not knowing what was going to happen for me, and it was such a turning point and I thought I was going to lose that opportunity to go to grad school. That's always been my ticket out. You know, my research continues to be a coping mechanism. There's a lot in this world that I've had to, throughout my life, realize I can't change. I am powerless over. I can't change how quickly I'll lose my vision, how much I will lose, but I can control what I do with this experience. I think that recognition and the knowledge that getting an education could open doors for doing something with this that could be bigger than about me is what I needed. It couldn't just be about me. I wouldn't have survived if that was the case. Does that make sense?
Lisa Bodnar:
Absolutely. Thank you for your vulnerability and for sharing all of that.
Bonnie Swenor:
Sure.
Lisa Bodnar:
When I was doing some research, I was honestly, embarrassingly, very shocked by the number and the diversity of disabilities. While I was imagining sort of this, a very physical, I can look at someone and see their disability. And now I see how limited that is and how it really must erase a big portion of people who have disabilities that I can't recognize it by looking at them. So I guess I'm curious from your experience, if I'm looking at you now, I maybe could tell you look slightly different in person, but it doesn't look ... okay. It's not.
Bonnie Swenor:
Nope. People say it all the time. You don't look blind. Yep. Yep. I get it.
Lisa Bodnar:
How can we not erase people with disabilities that you can't see?
Bonnie Swenor:
Yeah, no, thank you for this question. I think this is a really important thing to talk about. I think that it is a learning opportunity, right? And so thank you for sharing what you just shared. I strive to create a welcoming space around this so that there is an opportunity to learn. It's not a, how dare you not know this. It's like, of course you didn't know this. Society hasn't built it. There's no way for you to know this. And that's part of what we have to change, right? As long as someone is willing and interested in learning, I'm good to have the discussion and to have these conversations. I think the challenging moments are when the ableism is deep. And it's hard if the person I'm talking to is just unwilling to change their mindset around disability. And that does happen. And I don't think people recognize ableism is an ugly cousin of racism or all the other isms.
Bonnie Swenor:
And it's there, it's real. You know, people with disabilities feel them. I feel it all day every day. It's unfortunately not a part of our everyday discussions. But to your point, the people that fall under the umbrella of disability is really wide. 61 million Americans have a disability. That's one in four adults. And as an epidemiologist, I know that's an underestimate, right? Psychologic disability, depression can fall under that umbrella, diabetes can fall under that umbrella. It's not always visible. And there's lots of individuals that don't always identify as. Right? So there's sort of multiple components there. And that's okay. And I think we need to honor that. But we also need to de-stigmatize the word disability as being a bad thing and a misnomer and something we recoil from. That point right there where disability is a bad word is the point in our society that we have to change.
Bonnie Swenor:
And so I think for people with a hidden disability or an invisible disability like me, the double-edged sword is sort of the sitting with that. Are you going to talk about it today? How are you going to raise it in this conversation knowing sometimes it's loaded questions, right? So honestly I do really well in a professional space. I struggle the most sort of in the outside of the ... in the social world, like the moms at the playground. Hey, do you want to meet at the zoo? You know, we can take our [inaudible 00:16:21] there. I can't. Well, let's try another weekend. Oh, I can't. You know, my husband has this commitment and I can't drive. What do you mean you can't drive? Do you have a DUI? You know, which isn't also something maybe we should be shaming. But that's not why I can't drive. And now I have to have a whole conversation around this. You know, I now am this mystery mom and this sort of ... there's a change in how people will talk to me.
Lisa Bodnar:
I tried to look up the ways to describe people with disabilities. Disabled people, people who identify as having a disability, people with disabilities.
Bonnie Swenor:
Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
Because I didn't want to fuck this up.
Bonnie Swenor:
You're not. These are great questions.
Lisa Bodnar:
And I couldn't find an answer to this question. Just when I would think that I found the answer, I would find another website that said, don't do that. That's terrible.
Bonnie Swenor:
Yup. You're spot on.
Lisa Bodnar:
I don't want to get this wrong. I'm sure many people don't want to get it wrong. Is there a right answer?
Bonnie Swenor:
This is such a good question. Gosh. You have done tremendous work. I'm really grateful. No, seriously. These are really important questions that people honestly don't dig into and I think we need to. So thank you.
Lisa Bodnar:
Well, I didn't know any of this beforehand.
Bonnie Swenor:
No, please ask.
Lisa Bodnar:
So I wanted to kind of admit my ignorance until I planned to talk with you.
Bonnie Swenor:
No. So in the disability community, we don't agree on language. So there are people in the disability community that are very proud of the disability identity and use disability first language. So I'm a disabled person. In the landscape of the disability community, very strongly say that should be the way we should talk about people in our community. Right? Then there are people who prefer a person first language, I'm a person with a disability. Admittedly, the majority of people outside of our community tend to feel more comfortable with that language for lots of reasons. Right? The disability community is a little more overarching and all encompassing. So if I have an option, I will use both. I will say in my writing, person with a disability and disabled person to signal and honor the difference within the community. Sometimes I can't always carry that forward in research because of editorial styles. But you're picking up on exactly the discourse we're having within our community. There's a movement #SayTheWord, which is all about saying the word disabled. Right? Using that to de-stigmatize it.
Lisa Bodnar:
Where does the word disabled end or where does it start? I don't know which is the right question. Is it purely a personal perspective or experience?
Bonnie Swenor:
Another awesome question that I think there's discourse around. And it's interesting because if you ask people in the community, you'll absolutely get a different answer than if you ask people outside of the community maybe studying the community, if that makes sense. Right? So I think we've got a little bit of bridge making to make there personally, from my viewpoint on both sides of the equation. The gold standard is your perception of functioning impairment, the impact of a condition or an impairment on your daily life. That encompasses the modern view of disability, which is a social model, right? So there's a shift from what's called a medical model of disability, which is I look at you and I test you and I can determine you're functioning based on physical and objective measures, and I'll use those criteria to define disability. Versus the understanding that disability really is a social construct. It is your perception of your own functioning and your condition within your context. It matters who you are and where you are. So it matters what you think. You can be in a very difficult environment, either the people around you or the physical space or things around you that are changing your perspective or your viewpoint. Your culture, your own viewpoints of disability, positive or negative can change that response.
Lisa Bodnar:
You wrote this beautiful piece in Stat News, that was about COVID-19 and the barriers that people with disabilities face. And you related your own story and the difficulties in getting a test.
Bonnie Swenor:
This was very early in the pandemic, late March, right? So super early. And I wasn't feeling well. I had a fever and, you know, aches and all the symptoms.
Lisa Bodnar:
Were we in a lockdown at this point?
Bonnie Swenor:
We were. It had just started. But masks were not ubiquitous. Right? So masks were in shortage and were not something we had in our own home. We didn't understand transmission. We didn't understand a lot at that point.
Lisa Bodnar:
Right.
Bonnie Swenor:
So I called my provider who said I should go to a drive-through site to get a test, which I laughed and said, I don't drive. And the person on the other end said, well, what do you do? I said, I don't know, what do you do?
Lisa Bodnar:
You tell me.
Bonnie Swenor:
And my spouse is the only driver in the family, right? I said, I had two little kids. Pack us all in the car and go take me to a test, which scared me. You know, I was isolating in my bedroom in the house. Or get someone to come into our house to watch our kids so he could take me, which also felt as an epidemiologist, like a bad decision, not knowing who I'm bringing in, exposing them potentially. Or me getting in an Uber. Again, no masks, not knowing what I'm doing. Right? I'm thinking I'm going to be index case whatever in Baltimore. I had no idea. I mean, there were already cases. I'm being a little dramatic.
Lisa Bodnar:
Sure.
Bonnie Swenor:
But I never went, I never got the test, and I still actually, as an epidemiologist have guilt about that.
Lisa Bodnar:
Really?
Bonnie Swenor:
I do.
Lisa Bodnar:
Because you feel like I should've been counted?
Bonnie Swenor:
Yeah. Well, I just want to know. And I just felt like at that time, those data were really critical. And I don't know. There started, at that time, a broader discussion in the disability community about these kinds of barriers. And I just felt really frustrated because it wasn't elevating, right? This message wasn't being elevated around the barriers and the gaps in accessing information. So I wrote this article about that. But as I was writing it and really thinking about it, of course my epi brain took over in thinking, well, we're not tracking this, we're not collecting information about disability. We historically, in this country, don't ask people about their disability in a healthcare interaction. You know, you're asked about age, you're asked about race, ethnicity, marital status. And admittedly, there were challenges and remain challenges in the reporting of that information to try and look at inequities in testing or inequities in the outbreak. We couldn't, because we're not collecting that data. Those barriers were in data collection, predate the pandemic. So it wasn't even an option. I also know that when we're talking about making policy decisions, we need the evidence.
Bonnie Swenor:
And without the evidence, you don't get a seat at the policy table. And that is just a classic situation for the disability community. We don't have the data, we're not part of the policy, we continually are left behind. And yeah. And so, it's really just made me in that moment or even still in this moment, think more urgently about the social justice of the data we collect, and who we collected on, and who we don't. Right? So now when I give talks about this, I urge people to think about the data you have, but also the data you don't have. Right? Not just for statistical inference reasons, but for the social justice reasons.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. You want to talk about some fun stuff?
Bonnie Swenor:
Yeah. Let's do it.
Lisa Bodnar:
I've heard you've become a meme.
Bonnie Swenor:
I have. I have.
Lisa Bodnar:
Please tell me more.
Bonnie Swenor:
You know, my students think this is so funny. I don't know if it's just because of my vision. I don't always check myself when I'm giving looks to people. I don't know. But they love to ... and it's also probably because I can't see that they're taking pictures of me, which you know, is all in good fun. But there's like this classic picture that started this trend. And I know if my trainees listen to that, they are going to just roll over laughing.
Lisa Bodnar:
Will they send it to me?
Bonnie Swenor:
They probably will, which will mortify me. This is pre-pandemic. And I will disclose I was very pregnant, so you know. Just take that-
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes. We all get a free pass when we're pregnant.
Bonnie Swenor:
Yes. Free pass. There was a person who I adore in our working group taking a huge bite of cake. And I'm just glaring at him. Like, oh, gross. You know, like how dare you? And they put a thousand names on it, right? Like, a minute on the lips, forever on the hips. Like, you know, all kinds of stuff. And whenever we're at conferences, I guess I think I just ... I must have an expressive face. I don't know. They constantly are just trying to take a picture with me kind of making a funny face. And they make memes about it and they think it's so funny. They think it's so funny. They full know I can't see when they're taking my picture. It's fine. It's totally fine.
Lisa Bodnar:
Bonnie, what's something that people may be surprised to learn about you?
Bonnie Swenor:
In college, I was on the boxing team.
Lisa Bodnar:
Bad-ass. There was a boxing team.
Bonnie Swenor:
Yeah. I think I was undefeated. Though I was only on it for two years, I guess.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh my gosh.
Bonnie Swenor:
There was like three women, I think. And we trained with the men.
Lisa Bodnar:
No way.
Bonnie Swenor:
And you know, I just wanted to know how to defend myself. And I thought that ... this is this going to make me sound really tougher than I am. And I thought like, self-defense ... and this is a wrong view. So I'm sorry to actually put this out in the world. Self-defense is the right way to go, boxing isn't. Boxing won't teach you how to defend yourself.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. What did boxing teach you?
Bonnie Swenor:
I think I wanted to push my fearlessness a little bit. This was before I started to lose my vision. Right? So I think I was at a place in life where I was just trying to figure things out. And I've always been interested in that sort of pushing point of being a little bit fearless.
Lisa Bodnar:
Did it teach you, keep your hands up?
Bonnie Swenor:
It did.
Lisa Bodnar:
Protect your face.
Bonnie Swenor:
Protect your face. Protect your face. I mean, probably a good thing to know now that I'm losing my vision. I can still ... still have decent reach and good jab.
Lisa Bodnar:
Did you ever like break your nose?
Bonnie Swenor:
I did. Oh, sure.
Lisa Bodnar:
Did you?
Bonnie Swenor:
Yeah. I've broken my nose a bunch of times.
Lisa Bodnar:
Would your face be all beat up after?
Bonnie Swenor:
It wasn't so bad?. You know, I guess so. You know, I mean, it wasn't like a straight up break. It was probably like a hairline.
Lisa Bodnar:
You must've looked like, don't fucking get in your way. Right?
Bonnie Swenor:
I met my husband in college. So lucky I wasn't trying to impress many people.
Lisa Bodnar:
Do you have any weird phobias?
Bonnie Swenor:
I have a very peculiar phobia that's only elevated with my vision loss. Bleachers.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh gosh. That must be so hard.
Bonnie Swenor:
With the gap of the ... I'm always afraid I'm going to slip through.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh wow.
Bonnie Swenor:
I don't know if that's classified really as a phobia. But I really kind of freak out. Like, I don't want-
Lisa Bodnar:
Bonnie, you can classify your phobias any way you want. This is how you define it. Is there a popular TV show or movie or form of entertainment that you refuse to watch?
Bonnie Swenor:
Cooking shows.
Lisa Bodnar:
What's up with that?
Bonnie Swenor:
My daughter fights me on it. She loves cooking shows. I'm not a food motivated human. There is something wrong with my genetics. My husband would say in hunter gatherer days, I would expire. Like I don't feel compelled. I have to chew. It feels like a lot sometimes. It feels like extra. Like I don't find pleasure in ... if someone would deliver me delicious food, I'd be into that. But if I have to get up out of a chair and go prepare something and wash a dish or go buy something, like that's just too much. Right? Okay. So the idea of watching a show where people are putting in so much labor, just I can't get around that. I just think what I could accomplish in that time. And I get it. I get it. Like I understand it's just a different ... so my daughter ironically loves these shows at seven. She is enthralled with a cooking show and a baking show.
Lisa Bodnar:
British Baking Show?
Bonnie Swenor:
Yes. She loves these. And I'm just ... it's like, it's painful for me to watch.
Lisa Bodnar:
Wow. Okay. Is there a movie that scarred you as a child?
Bonnie Swenor:
Children of the Corn.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes.
Bonnie Swenor:
Who hasn't that scarred? Yeah. I watched that at a sleepover. You know, when you're a kid, like sometimes your parents ... well, my parents just shady parents and let me do whatever and had no leash and liability. And you watch all this stuff like you're way too young to watch. Yeah. That was my Children of the Corn experience. And I didn't sleep for a month.
Lisa Bodnar:
Wow. I was over at a friend's house. She had HBO and I didn't. We watched this movie called Lust in the Dust. It wasn't like they were showing anything, but enough that it really scarred me. I was like, what is that? [inaudible 00:29:29]. Too soon. If you could be a fly on the wall, where would you land?
Bonnie Swenor:
I think in this moment, in my life, I am trying to channel my inner Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I would love to be a fly on the wall in some of her arguments like in the old times. I think about the things she's done and the way she's done them, just to know how she spoke and handled herself and how others responded. And I know there's some footage of it. But just to have been there.
Lisa Bodnar:
Bonnie, what's the weirdest thing in your fridge?
Bonnie Swenor:
I don't know if it's weird, but it's always in my house is a veggie party tray. There's something-
Lisa Bodnar:
That's weird to always have.
Bonnie Swenor:
Okay. Like always. like we have two right now in my fridge.
Lisa Bodnar:
So you only have four people in your house.
Bonnie Swenor:
I know. I know. But trying to get my kids to eat vegetables. We started pretty young that like, hey, a veggie party tray means it's a party. Like it's a little bit fun and exciting. And so when we rip off the top of that party tray, all of a sudden it kicks the veggies up a notch. And they are like, oh my gosh, it's the party tray night.
Lisa Bodnar:
That's amazing.
Bonnie Swenor:
Like let's eat this carrot that we wouldn't have eaten in a different vessel. And when we go on road trips, we always pack a little ... like they sell the mini party trays. Right? So we put one in the cooler. And it's like the first thing they want. They're like, did you bring the party tray? I'm like, oh, we did. We're having a car party.
Lisa Bodnar:
But if you have it this often, it's not really a party anymore.
Bonnie Swenor:
You'd think it would have burned out.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. It hasn't washed-
Bonnie Swenor:
It has not. There's still an interest in a veggie party. I don't know.
Lisa Bodnar:
Bonnie, you run with this as long as you can. Go for it. Okay. I'm going to say a list of things. And for each, you're going to tell me yes or no.
Bonnie Swenor:
Okay.
Lisa Bodnar:
Makeup.
Bonnie Swenor:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Gambling.
Bonnie Swenor:
No.
Lisa Bodnar:
Cilantro.
Bonnie Swenor:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Cookies with raisins.
Bonnie Swenor:
Yes. You're a no.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. Fine. Shopping in person.
Bonnie Swenor:
No. Hard no.
Lisa Bodnar:
Halloween.
Bonnie Swenor:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Dressing up for Halloween.
Bonnie Swenor:
No.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. Candy corn.
Bonnie Swenor:
Yeah. I'll be honest.
Lisa Bodnar:
Me too. It's good.
Bonnie Swenor:
It is good. I want to say no because I feel like that's socially acceptable, but no, I like it. I do. I eat it.
Lisa Bodnar:
Do you like the candy corn pumpkins?
Bonnie Swenor:
Not as much, but I do.
Lisa Bodnar:
I agree. Bonnie, I'm so grateful that you would not just spend time with me and allow me to get to know you, but share so many things about yourself and teach so many of us about things that I wish we knew already. Thank you for all of that. I had so much fun getting to know you.
Bonnie Swenor:
Thank you. I mean, thank you for giving space to this. I'm grateful. I help others do the same. I'm really appreciative for you, for this podcast, for all of this. Thank you.
Lisa Bodnar:
I think after this, you're going to get your own podcast. Just saying.
Bonnie Swenor:
I don't think anyone wants to hear me.
Lisa Bodnar:
I do. I'm loving this. You shouldn't be a motivational speaker.
Bonnie Swenor:
Oh gosh, I'm just an epidemiologist.
