Shiny Epi People
Shiny Epi People
John Pamplin, PhD on HBCUs and reliving his step team days
John Pamplin, PhD, is an epi postdoc at NYU who studies the consequences of structural racism and systemic inequity on mental health and substance use. John earned his bachelor's degree at Morehouse College, one of the a historically Black colleges and universities in the US. John talks about how his experience at Morehouse allowed him to explore his racial identity and experience the type of mentorship he couldn't at a majority white institution. John also tells me how mentors shaped his life, and how he gives back by mentoring. We discuss John's days on his college step team, doing conferences "right" (read: having fun), gymnastics, crunchy peanut butter, and more!
Lisa Bodnar:
Yo, I went to Chapel Hill. Literally from orientation freshman year, we were taught to hate Duke. It was like on the agenda of things you're going to learn, how much we hate Duke.
John Pamplin:
My wife is a Tar Heel.
Lisa Bodnar:
Nice.
John Pamplin:
I don't know if you can see this.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah, let me see. Oh yeah, nice.
John Pamplin:
Yeah, it's actually, it's literally through the entire house, this is definitely a Tar Heel house.
Lisa Bodnar:
A Tar Heel house, Tar Heel born, Tar Heel breed.
John Pamplin:
When you die, you'll be Tar Heel dead.
Lisa Bodnar:
Right. You know it well, wow.
Lisa Bodnar:
Hello Shiny Epi People, this is Lisa Bodnar, welcome back to the show, I'm really happy that you're here. You can find the show on Instagram and Twitter @shinyepipeople, And if you would like to become a patron of the show, we are at patreon.com/shinyepipeople. Thanks to the nearly 50 patrons of the show, I'm so grateful for your support and for your belief in me in putting out a great show.
Lisa Bodnar:
Today I'm speaking with John Pamplin. John is a postdoc at NYU, and he received his PhD and MPH in epidemiology from Columbia University Mailman School of Public Health. As a psychiatric and social epidemiologist, John studies the consequences of structural racism and systemic inequality on mental health and substance use outcomes. In particular, his work is interested in understanding the roles that policy, the criminal legal system, and drug policy enforcement play in producing racial patterns in opioid overdose, arrests, and related harms. John and I cover a range of topics in our conversation including how to conference well, how we've done that at SER, how attending Morehouse, a historically Black college informed his racial identity, mentorship, and much more. I hope you enjoyed this chat.
Lisa Bodnar:
Hi.
John Pamplin:
How are you?
Lisa Bodnar:
Thanks for making time you do this with me.
John Pamplin:
Of course.
Lisa Bodnar:
I was trying to remember, hold on. We met at SER, but just a quick hello?
John Pamplin:
Yes, that is true.
Lisa Bodnar:
You were dancing at my dance party?
John Pamplin:
So we met the posters, I think, before, and then again at the dance party.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay,.
John Pamplin:
Came to one of your parties before the dance party.
Lisa Bodnar:
What do you mean? Oh, the year before?
John Pamplin:
Seattle, yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes, okay, I remember that now.
John Pamplin:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay, Seattle. So that was the anniversary of SER.
John Pamplin:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Did you go to the aquarium?
John Pamplin:
I did not, because I was a broke graduate student, yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. And then did you go to my after party? It was a place that might have gone up in flames.
John Pamplin:
I miss that.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. For your own safety, it was probably a good idea.
John Pamplin:
Whenever there is a real deal, in person, SER again, none of the morning sessions are going to have any attendance because people are going to be out of their mind every night. So my first SER was in Miami, the Epi Congress.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yep.
John Pamplin:
And it was also the summer that I had to take my methods qualifying exam, which was scheduled for three weeks after SER. So myself and my cohort mates, we'd find the random empty room at 6:00 AM before breakfast and do our study session.
Lisa Bodnar:
You know, there have been times that I am just rolling in at 6:00 AM.
John Pamplin:
Take me with you.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay.
John Pamplin:
I am on board.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes.
John Pamplin:
It's actually something that I don't think academics really talk about openly, that conferences can be fun. There is an annual biomedical research conference, I think minority student is the end of the acronym.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay.
John Pamplin:
I was on a scholarship program in college, and we would go every year. I think I learned how to conference then, which is important because when you're 21 and you just got stuck in Phoenix all of a sudden with a bunch of other college kids, it's a very different experience after you've had dinner and you're like, okay, I'm not going to bed. So we had gone to this conference every year that I was in college. I would approach a lot of things professionally based on my experience, not just that conference, but throughout my experience in that scholarship program. We did a lot of business trips, our spring break was counted for every year, and the director of that program, it was very much understood, you all are adults, I don't care as long as you're here on time and ready to go and dressed, and all those things. I just don't believe in there's a rule that you can't have fun.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah, and people in our field are fun.
John Pamplin:
Yes, as you are highlighting through this podcast.
Lisa Bodnar:
Right? People are super fun.
John Pamplin:
So I went to Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia, it's part of the Atlanta University Center, which is a great set up historically Black colleges and universities. So it's Spelman college, Clark Atlanta University, Morris Brown. It is a fun place to be. For example, there is something called Market Friday, which was just a block party on Spelman's campus every single Friday. That was just what you did on Fridays if you were a normal student and not in my scholarship program, who had our seminars at 5:00 PM on Friday, every single week.
Lisa Bodnar:
That is so mean.
John Pamplin:
It is. My senior year I was the president of the scholarship program, and the final Friday of that semester, me and my friends would, we're going Market Friday, we're going. I have not had a chance to really do that, I'm going, and I'm living it up.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
John Pamplin:
Newly 21. I get a text on my phone and they're like, "They're asking where you are, they're expecting you to say some words."
Lisa Bodnar:
Right.
John Pamplin:
And I showed up, and I'm not in a suit, which was a thing, we were supposed to be in a suit every time.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, suit.
John Pamplin:
I had a suit hanging in the backseat of my car.
Lisa Bodnar:
Wow.
John Pamplin:
And so what would happen is I would get emails saying, "Hey, there's this thing at the president's house, we'd like you to go." And so I had this habit of just having a suit in my car. I remember I left Market Friday, I was like, I'm not changing, I'm not doing it, I'm going like this. And I went, and I gave my little speech, as it were, which apparently went over quite well, even though I had been day drinking for a few hours at that point.
Lisa Bodnar:
Right.
John Pamplin:
And I went up to my program director and I just told her, "I thank you for everything that you've done, and I love you, I'm going back to Market Friday now." And we left.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
John Pamplin:
Morehouse was a men's institution. For the context of going to Morehouse and what that meant for me in particular, as much stigma as there is around being Black, and especially in, I think, higher education is compounded when you're talking about Black men in many ways. And I had a really important, I think, development of my identity while I was at that school. I'm from Ohio originally, I did not grow up with a lot of other Black men in the area where I grew up.
Lisa Bodnar:
Where'd you grow up?
John Pamplin:
The village of Yellow Springs. It's roughly 4,000 people. Dayton, if you're familiar.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
John Pamplin:
Yeah, it's basically outside of Dayton, Ohio.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay.
John Pamplin:
There were a few other Black students. When there are so few Black individuals, and Black men in particular, you don't get to see a spectrum of what it means to be Black, and it becomes very easy to fall into societal tropes that being Black is a specific thing, or that you have to do certain things to be "Black." So going to Morehouse where suddenly my entire student body was people who identify primarily as Black men, and you see, oh, Blackness, isn't tied solely to some kind of societal pop cultural aspect. It certainly informs the experience. I could just be myself for myself and not have to feel like I'm trying to also be part of this culture. When I look back on my childhood, especially in high school, I think I did a lot of chasing what I thought it meant to be Black. I went to a Montessori school for most of my childhood.
Lisa Bodnar:
Me too, that's so wonderful.
John Pamplin:
Yeah, and by most of my childhood, I mean through eighth grade, so literally until high school.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay, yeah.
John Pamplin:
And so I went to public high school freshman year, and I had more than one other Black person in my class for the first time, and I was suddenly finding myself trying to fit in in ways that, frankly, to the extent that I didn't fit in had less to do with "Blackness," and more to do with the fact that I've been going to school with five other kids at a time for the last however many years.
Lisa Bodnar:
That's right.
John Pamplin:
And I did a lot of, my parents' approach to parenting was to throw me into everything possible and to see what stuck. I played varsity sports, I played basketball and I did track, but I also did soccer, which was culturally a bit different. Then I also was in orchestra. So I had all these different groups, some aligned with my racial identity, and some did not. I mean, just to be flat out about it, there were far more Black people on my basketball team than there was in the orchestra. In my limited perspective of what Blackness was, that meant that I could be proud about being on the basketball team, but I wanted to be kind of hush hush about being in orchestra.
John Pamplin:
And so that was one of the main things I think for me, going to Morehouse and getting to see a spectrum of identity, was that none of these things are facially tied. My identity, especially my racial identity, has nothing to do with whether I play music or play sports, or how many science classes I take, and that was easily the thing that I took away from that collegiate experience that carries even now.
John Pamplin:
When I first, me and my dad went and visited the campus, we were trying to find a building, we couldn't find it. There were a group of guys hanging out on a bench, laughing, joking, and we couldn't figure out where we were going. My dad told me to go ask one of them, and I was like, "No, I'm not going to go over that. We don't know anything about them." And I just remember my dad went and he was like, "Excuse me, can you show us where so-and-so billing is?" The student was like, "Of course, sir," and not only told us where to go, but then showed us, he actually left his friends, walked us to the building, and that was part of this, I think, respect for elders type piece that's really ingrained in the culture there.
John Pamplin:
But I mean honestly, it was a moment for myself of my own internalized racism, honestly, that I was afraid to ask these young, loud, Black men, because I don't know, they seemed scary. I can only admit these things freely now because I can recognize that this is a culture that we all grow up in, and it has been growth for me to recognize that. But the point is, having that experience before I even enrolled as a student, I think shook me a little bit about how I was going to come to this school and what aspects of my past life I was going to leave at home.
Lisa Bodnar:
Did you feel at all obligated to talk about your racial identity when you came on the show?
John Pamplin:
I did not, not in a way that wasn't self obligation. It is a huge part for me, at this stage of where I am in my life, where we are talking so much about diversity and inclusion. Everyone's department is talking so much about that. Part of that is also having these frank conversations about what that is, and really shaking up the idea of colorblindness. We don't have to avoid the conversation to be not racist. In fact, promoting the conversation is what we should be taught. When we're talking about inclusion, we're talking about including these stories that often get overlooked, and this bit of a conversation may not apply to, for example, all of the white listeners, in the same way that there are so many conversations that don't apply to so many Black listeners, and listeners of other identities, and that's fine, and that's the point. It's not to say that every conversation has to apply to everybody, it's the fact that you include conversations for everyone.
John Pamplin:
Yeah, so it was something that I saw as an opportunity for the platform, frankly. I am active on Twitter, for example, and I'm active in epi Twitter, and especially among trainees, there is a critical mass of young Black epi trainees, and I've had so many conversations with them about SER, for example, because the reality is, Black people on average have not felt that comfortable at SER. I know a number of investigators who say, "Yeah, I don't go to that meeting." Something that was really cool in Minneapolis, we had a moment that is one of the thing that was so disappointing about not being in person, this next meeting, because a lot of us were really looking to continue that energy.
John Pamplin:
So for me, I just think about those other trainees who, I guess comes back to that idea of mentoring. When I just think of things that I would have loved to have seen for myself, and heard for myself, and if I find myself in a position to maybe do that for other folks, then let's go for it.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'm so glad you're part of our community, John.
John Pamplin:
I'm glad to be a part of this community.
Lisa Bodnar:
You must have had some really great mentorship when you were at Morehouse.
John Pamplin:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Which I think is hard to find in an undergrad. As an undergrad, I would have had to really, really seek out mentors. Was it more in place for you there?
John Pamplin:
I will say there's two things about that, and this is a shameless plug for going to a school, to an HBCU, especially as a Black student, is that you do get nurtured in a way that often is not the case for you at a predominantly white institution. So that's the first thing I'd say. It's something that now I have to walk into rooms all the time knowing that, because that was my first experience, and then part of the experience for me was being taught very explicitly how to seek out mentors moving forward. So I've been fortunate, I've had amazing mentors my entire academic career. So going back to the director of my scholarship program, and I'm still in contact with, for example, my organic chemistry professor.
John Pamplin:
So my first PI that I worked for was Dr. Dan Hummer in the psychology department. Honestly, he changed the trajectory of my life in terms of giving me real ownership of a project as a junior. I've always had people, including him, including Dr. Shipman Young, who's that organic chemistry professor, who not only in the immediate made sure I was taken care of, but everything I did afterwards, they were always asking. I remember when I asked for recommendation letters for some summer program, I told Dr. Shipman Young which schools they were for, and he had this whole conversation with me afterwards explaining to me the idea of what a Research I institution is and recognizing, trajectory wise, why an internship at certain programs would mean something different versus others.
John Pamplin:
And that's the type of thing, just taking the time out, recognizing that, hey, you might not know this yet, so let me help catch you to speed. And so when I left undergrad, I feel like I knew way more about the idea of being an academic than many of my peers, even in my master's program, and some of the people when I was a doctoral student. I didn't grow up knowing it, just like many of them did it, so my privilege came in the way of great mentors.
Lisa Bodnar:
So how do you give back?
John Pamplin:
I am a huge believer in being a mentor, and I also think that you don't have to wait until you have a faculty position to do it.
Lisa Bodnar:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
John Pamplin:
Peer mentors can at times be more important.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes.
John Pamplin:
It's important to have that person who you can be truly vulnerable with.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
John Pamplin:
And sometimes your faculty mentor can be that person too, but having someone who's more immediately in that stage, whether it's people who came up behind me in the doctoral program when I was at Columbia. I was fortunate to always have a critical mass of Black students when I was at Columbia, and we formed our own support system. And one of the things that we've started doing was making sure that when new students came in, we brought them in, we brought them in the fold. And so even now that I've graduated and left, I make a point of reaching out and meeting the new students, and letting them know, do you want to schedule a monthly meeting and chat? I recognize that I'm junior enough that I don't have all the answers, but I am-
Lisa Bodnar:
I don't think anyone has all the answers, no matter how senior you are.
John Pamplin:
Exactly, exactly. I can at least tell you what I was thinking when I was where you are, because it wasn't that long ago, and I still remember it very distinctly.
Lisa Bodnar:
What do you think is something that people get wrong about you?
John Pamplin:
I am incredibly good at presenting as confident.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay, say more.
John Pamplin:
So for example, that session you were talking about.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes.
John Pamplin:
I probably, if I wasn't holding something, I probably would've just been tapping away. I was the biggest ball of nerves. I am a lot of times, actually.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
John Pamplin:
I have a background in public speaking, to some extent. Morehouse, in its insight, a required speech class was part of the biology major. So what that means is that I have developed the ability to speak well enough, even if I am a ball of nerves, because I can lean back on that training and get through it in that way.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes. Are you super nervous at the beginning, but then you calm down a bit in?
John Pamplin:
Depends.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay.
John Pamplin:
Some of them I Black out and I don't remember the experience.
Lisa Bodnar:
Wow.
John Pamplin:
That symposium, that critical race theory symposium, I don't know what I said.
Lisa Bodnar:
Really?
John Pamplin:
No idea.
Lisa Bodnar:
Interesting.
John Pamplin:
So there's that, that's probably the number one thing.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes I wouldn't have known that about you.
John Pamplin:
Everyone, just about, has some level of nerves about speaking in public.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
John Pamplin:
It just varies from person to person. And so the point is, even if you're on the higher end of those nerves, it's still doable.
Lisa Bodnar:
Did you do gymnastics when you were little?
John Pamplin:
That was part of my parents, put me in everything. Their thing was, we'll put you in it, it's up to you to decide whether you want to continue or not. While I was taking gymnastics there was a new show that started that all the kids were taking by storm called Power Rangers.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh yeah.
John Pamplin:
Every day when I left my gymnastics class, it was just in time to see the ending credits in the lobby of the place. And I would go to school on Monday, and all the kids were talking about it, and I think I just went up to my parents crying, "I want to watch Power Rangers." And that's why I quit
Lisa Bodnar:
Today, what kind of gymnastics could you do? On a mat.
John Pamplin:
A mean cartwheel.
Lisa Bodnar:
Could you?
John Pamplin:
I could do mean cartwheel.
Lisa Bodnar:
Without hurting yourself?
John Pamplin:
Yes, I believe to this day I could do a cartwheel, and a round off, and that's probably the extent of what I can do safely.
Lisa Bodnar:
I tried a cartwheel a few years ago when my daughters were like, "Let's do cartwheels," and I was like, "I can do a cartwheel," and I pulled my hamstring, it was terrible.
John Pamplin:
I will say the last time I tried to do a cartwheel, it did not go well, but not out of execution.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
John Pamplin:
I was not dressed accordingly, and I ripped my pants. My wife was on the ground cackling.
Lisa Bodnar:
Well, SER, cartwheel time.
John Pamplin:
Someone has to remind me to bring a pair of shorts.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay.
John Pamplin:
That's the deal.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay.
John Pamplin:
Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
A year and a half from now.
John Pamplin:
Chicago.
Lisa Bodnar:
Chicago. If you could go back and relive something from college, what would it be?
John Pamplin:
Okay, so I was on a freshmen step team in college.
Lisa Bodnar:
No way.
John Pamplin:
Step was the biggest thing on campus, it was part of the freshman experience.
Lisa Bodnar:
Could you explain what it is to anyone who might not know what it is?
John Pamplin:
So stepping is a rhythmic sequence of stomping and clapping, and generally conducted within a team. Precision is a big element of it.
Lisa Bodnar:
And it's choreographed, right?
John Pamplin:
Exactly, right. And so you have competitions where teams compete, and you're judged on your things, like how creative was the sequence, and the precision elements of it, and you have to be loud and energetic. There's a whole lot to it. Our step team, my freshman year, we won all the shows on campus, we actually went to Florida and we were on TV. BET's Spring Bling had a step show that year.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh my.
John Pamplin:
And we won that too. When we got back to Atlanta, we started getting booked to do exhibitions at different things around the city. After doing this all year long, we got reached out to by Sony Records, they were getting ready to shoot a music video for a new artist, and asked us if we would be in the video. We had been doing this, step season started in October, and we were like, we want to go home, we're tired. The artist, I remember in the fall, it was this woman named Tiffany, and her debut video came out, and it was featuring Ciara. Ciara was the biggest thing back then, and she's still big now, but we all kicked ourselves because we missed this opportunity. Yeah, so I would go back, I'd relive that.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
John Pamplin:
I would also tell us to suck it up and go do this one last thing.
Lisa Bodnar:
Right, right. If you had a warning label, do you know what yours would be?
John Pamplin:
My warning label, according to me, would be careful, will overthink you to death. My wife would tell you my warning label is, careful, cannot tell a short story.
Lisa Bodnar:
Hey, I disagree.
John Pamplin:
Thank you
Lisa Bodnar:
I mean, I'm digging this. I love a storyteller. There's no one I would rather spend time with than a storyteller.
John Pamplin:
See, that's how I think of it too. I will walk into a room and she'll see it on my face, and she will say, "I need you to be succinct."
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. Growing up we always called it, we're telling a Bodnar story, because in my family, we all like to tell long stories, that it's like, settle in, I got a Bodnar story for you.
John Pamplin:
It's fascinating, I mean, storytelling is a huge part of society. Who goes to the movies unless to hear a story with videos?
Lisa Bodnar:
Entertainment is storytelling.
John Pamplin:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Side of salad or soup.
John Pamplin:
Ooh, I will probably, if it's an interesting soup, I'm going to go soup.
Lisa Bodnar:
Like what?
John Pamplin:
So my thing for just about anything food related is that I would rather try something new than something I've had and really liked.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay.
John Pamplin:
And so the prospect of me having a new soup is just higher than a new salad.
Lisa Bodnar:
That's right, because who's going to make a new side salad?
John Pamplin:
There's only so much you can do. Right, a side salad, no one is swinging for the fences for a side salad.
Lisa Bodnar:
No, I think that's a good way to put it. Okay, I'm going to list some things, and I'd like you to tell me yes or no.
John Pamplin:
Okay.
Lisa Bodnar:
Are you ready?
John Pamplin:
I'm ready.
Lisa Bodnar:
Craft beer.
John Pamplin:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Are you drinking a craft beer right now?
John Pamplin:
I am.
Lisa Bodnar:
Nice.
John Pamplin:
This is something from Appalachian something. I'm also, for those just listening, I'm now sitting in the dark, the sun has gone down.
Lisa Bodnar:
I know, you are really dark. I can see very little of you.
John Pamplin:
There's actually a light switch, I've just been so lazy.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, there we go. Oh my gosh.
John Pamplin:
Yeah, I'm a person again.
Lisa Bodnar:
Wow, you are.
John Pamplin:
Wicked Weed Brewing is apparently the company that I'm-
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. Spelling.
John Pamplin:
No, spell check.
Lisa Bodnar:
Me too. I'm a no, I'm a horrible speller. Talking on the phone.
John Pamplin:
Ooh, that takes me back to my childhood. For nostalgia alone, I'm going to go yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Wait, even at your age now as a millennial, you're okay with talking on the phone?
John Pamplin:
I am still of the generation that my people had to call the house phone.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay.
John Pamplin:
And I would have to hopefully grab it before my parents did.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
John Pamplin:
Yes, no.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay, all right, you're a phone talker.
John Pamplin:
I am.
Lisa Bodnar:
I like it. Peanut butter.
John Pamplin:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Crunchy peanut butter.
John Pamplin:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Spicy food.
John Pamplin:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Belts.
John Pamplin:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
In COVID times, you're going to say yes to belts?
John Pamplin:
I mean, I haven't worn one in COVID time.
Lisa Bodnar:
You're such a cool dude. I'm so glad I know you. Thank you for sharing your story, for being vulnerable, for taking time.
John Pamplin:
Of course.
Lisa Bodnar:
It was really fun.
John Pamplin:
This was a blast.
Lisa Bodnar:
What's your COVID uniform. Are you wearing it?
John Pamplin:
No, I actually have real pants on, I have jeans.
Lisa Bodnar:
So do I. I have real pants on right now.
John Pamplin:
Okay, so here's the thing.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'm dressed up for you.
John Pamplin:
You look lovely, by the way.
Lisa Bodnar:
Thank you, I'm wearing a sweater. Look, I have a necklace on, I have earrings on.
John Pamplin:
I listened to a few of these episodes, and I've heard a number of conversations about folks and their attire, and I had this moment, because I packed, like I said I'm at my in-laws house.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah, yeah.
John Pamplin:
Where I basically brought three Black t-shirts, three pairs of sweatpants, and a hoodie. And I was like, I could've brought something and actually tried to look. Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
Excuse me, I wanted your suit.
John Pamplin:
I know, right.
Lisa Bodnar:
Please, now that I know you had this standard, why not for Shiny Epi People, John?
