Kemi Doll, MD on career coaching and romance novels

Kemi Doll, MD, is an Assistant Professor of Obstetrics & Gynecology and an adjunct assistant professor of Health Services at the University of Washington Schools of Medicine and Public Health.  She is a practicing gynecologic oncologist and health services researcher, and has her own career coaching business that helps Women of Color take control of their careers. Kemi has a new podcast called Your Unapologetic Career. Kemi tells me about the advice she gives coaching, finding the career that nourishes us, how our uniqueness is our strength, leading while learning, romance novels, pause button on life, and more. She is a powerhouse!

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Kemi Doll:

My son recently asked me, he's like, "You know, mommy, I think I can maybe start getting an allowance". I was like, I'm so glad you brought this topic up because what we don't here is earn money for free. So I'm glad that you are now interested in working. Cause I can give you a whole schedule of activities, right? Because, allowance? No, you're not just going to get automatic money in your account. That is not how things work. Absolutely not.

Lisa Bodnar:

Hey everyone. Welcome back to Shiny Epi People. I'm Lisa Bodner. I'm really happy that you're here today. Please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts. That helps others to find the show. If you're looking for additional content and updates about the show, you can go to our Instagram and Twitter @ShinyEpiPeople. I am a one-woman show here, producing, hosting, and editing the podcast from my closet, while the rest of my life continues on. So I appreciate any support, sharing the show with your friends or donating via my Patreon at patreon.com/shinyepipeople. If you have come here for some shine in your life, I am here to give it to you. Today, I'm speaking with Kemi Dole. Kemi is an assistant professor of obstetrics and gynecology and an adjunct assistant professor of health services at the University of Washington Schools of Medicine and Public Health. She received her MD at Columbia University, and after completing her residency in OB-GYN at Northwestern, Kemi moved to UNC chapel hill and completed a fellowship in gynecologic oncology and a Master's in clinical research.

Lisa Bodnar:

She's dedicated to improving the lives and outcomes for black women with endometrial cancer and to reduce racial disparities. Kemi's work involves quantitative and qualitative research, along with advocacy for black women's reproductive health. On top of all that, Kemi has a private academic coaching business called KD Coach. She works with women of color in academic medicine who want to take control of their careers. She also just launched a podcast called Your Unapologetic Career. And after you hear her today, I have a feeling you will be hitting that subscribe button. I hope you enjoyed this chat.

Kemi Doll:

Hi, Lisa.

Lisa Bodnar:

I'm so glad that you agreed to do this. So, you're not an epidemiologist. I know that that comes as news to you, but you are in academic medicine. You're a gynecologic oncologist, you research in health equity, and you're a coach and a career strategist, and you have two little kids. So how do you do this? It seems like a lot.

Kemi Doll:

I think the first answer is because I want to do all of those things that you just said.

Lisa Bodnar:

That's a great answer.

Kemi Doll:

It would not be possible if I didn't want to do it. The other aspect is that each one of the things you mentioned could be somebody's absolute full-time life encompassing job from like the mom-ing to the coaching, to the clinical care, et cetera, or could be just an aspect of what any one person does. I had let go of the idea, and the comparison of myself. I'm not going to compare my mom-ing to somebody who is a full-time stay-at-home mom. I'm not going to compare my coaching to somebody who's a full-time around the clock coach. There are ways in which I find Sandy, because I understand I'm not trying to have eight full-time lives. I'm actually trying to have this very fun, very exciting, integrated life that has all of these components. The more that they build on each other, the more they influence each other, the less it feels that scattered to me. And it all feels like aspects of the same thing.

Lisa Bodnar:

Did you have a time where you were trying to do A+ and compare your mom-ing and compare your research to other people? And that you had to come to terms with it?

Kemi Doll:

Yes. First of all, I feel it was like life-long journey. I guess I would say that, before something, maybe we'll get to that in this conversation. So as I said, there's some before. What I feel my approach to anything I was trying to do was to focus on that one thing and be a hundred percent excellent at it. I came up through medical training and it makes it very easy to do that. In that world, I think the default is comparison because that's how you're defining meeting the goal. It's like I'm looking around me and I'm making sure that I'm at this level or above.

Kemi Doll:

So it doesn't start happening until fellowship for me, clinical fellowship, where I choose a program where I know I can get research training and I start to go off the beaten path with that program. And that was the beginning of saying, "Oh, okay, I'm going down this different path". During that time, I was still in total comparison. So I'm in the postdoc comparing myself to all these PhDs. Basically, I constantly feel dumb. I feel like I really pulled one over on these people. I don't know how they let me in. I'm in my little master's classes, learning, applying, learning, applying, as much as I can.

Kemi Doll:

And so, it really wasn't until I became faculty and then started to realize that it's very, very maladaptive once you're done with training. Because there is no standard. And the more that we try to find and compare, what is A+, what is a hundred percent, the more the goalpost keeps moving. I think that was really the final shift out of ... all right, I'm not trying to do any of the things that y'all are trying to do. I'm trying to just create this career that works for me, and then actually had to shift with the coaching business to this life that works for me. Because now I'm doing something totally crazy. And I feel I am still very much on that journey.

Lisa Bodnar:

I would love to talk about your coaching.

Kemi Doll:

I coach women of color faculty, my "target audience" is early career faculty in academic medicine. Basically since I've started, I've had PhDs in Public Health also be in the mix as well. And some PhD nurses. I don't know, my coaching business is essentially really helping women reclaim their inspiration for why they want to be faculty members, and then their own power in making the career that they want come alive and come true. I want people to look on a day-to-day experience and long-term and have the experience that the career is nourishing to them. That it gives back to them. They give in and they get out, and that's what makes it sustainable, right? That's what makes it exciting.

Lisa Bodnar:

What do most people come to you for help with? What are their challenges at the beginning?

Kemi Doll:

Yeah. Their challenges are, one, prioritizing their own work, and believing that their work is valuable. Actually, I'll step back. This is what they come to me. They come to me to help with productivity. They come to me for help with trying to figure out how to stop working nights and weekends. And they come to me for help with confidence. But all of those things are just symptoms of the underlying issue. What they're really coming is to clarify and own for themselves, what they're doing here in their academic job and their faculty, what they're trying to create, what they're trying to do and why. Then they're coming to understand how do you prioritize this within this larger behemoths of these institutional systems and the institutional cultures that seems set up to keep you distracted. It's very difficult to find your own way in that way, especially early on.

Kemi Doll:

And then I think the other thing that they're coming for is the development. The thing that's underneath the confidence, and the productivity, and all of that, is really boundaries and developing their own inner leader. Because especially for the MDs, I mean, we've been abdicating the role of like who's in charge and who's making decisions for most of our adult life, basically. I mean, we got our training positions through a match. I mean, talk about giving up control. You're just like, "Here's my list. Fingers crossed". So, there's this process of reclaiming this. I can make my own decisions. And then, learning how to do that in a way where you develop better and better methods to make decisions for yourself, to learn from them, to move forward from them.

Kemi Doll:

And ultimately all of that allows you to really build your blueprint for the future. This is what I'm going to do. I have the confidence to know I can do it. I have the leadership skills in myself to figure out how to make decisions. And I understand how to navigate these environments that are really not built for us. Because I coach women of color, so we're constantly dealing with sexism, racism, xenophobia, and constantly dealing with folks in positions of power, who frankly are bad players. I think we talk around this a lot, but we're dealing with people who are really not there for your best interests. And so, navigating around all of that is what we do.

Lisa Bodnar:

What pieces of coaching advice do you see most people have the hardest time adopting?

Kemi Doll:

That their uniqueness is their strength.

Lisa Bodnar:

I love that. Okay. Can you say more about that?

Kemi Doll:

Yeah. The very things that we feel make us different, the very things that we're like, "Well, I'm this way, so that's why this is not going to work for me". They all come in, they all have this list of, "This is what I want to do, but these are all the reasons why I can't do it because I'm this way". Those are the exact reasons why you're going to be successful.

Kemi Doll:

Because most of the time, those reasons are about comparison. They're about looking out and saying, I haven't seen anybody do it like me, or I haven't seen anybody like me do it. It's all about, basically, not being able to see an example of you out there doing it. And my whole thing is, if that's the case, the field is open. If that's the case, instead of trying to contort yourself into being what you do see, you have to recognize that now you're sitting on gold. Nobody's got what you got. I think that's the hardest place, but that's where we start. Because basically once you get that, then it's like, okay, the fire is burning. And then you're so much ready to tackle all the other problems.

Lisa Bodnar:

I wonder if people listening will be like, well, I don't have any unique skills.

Kemi Doll:

I know, it's so sad what we've done to people. And that, yes, that happens. People are like, well, there's nothing special about me. And I'm like, okay, let's back up. That is not true. But, I get it. A lot of the ways that we are unique are those simple preferences. Those simple, intuitive, "oh, this is interesting to me, and this is not", "This is the way I want to do it, this is the way I don't". And being able to follow that, I think is a place of immense power and inspiration for us that is usually very, either tapped out or underdeveloped as faculty.

Kemi Doll:

People come to coaching, or really anything else, and it's like, "Tell me what to do. I just want to know what to do. Just tell me what to do". What's actually more important is figuring out what you want and figuring out what's important to you. And then us figuring out what you want to do. What we work on cultivating is their ability to ask themselves, and answer the question themselves. Because if they can do that, Lisa, then they can do whatever they want.

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah, forever, right?

Kemi Doll:

Yeah, you're not waiting on somebody to give you permission. There's always help, I mean, don't get me wrong. We talk about this. There are always ways to collect information, learn from people who've gone ahead of you. But even that learning process, you learn how to take advice and what advice to take. You learn how to assess somebody from where they're sitting, so you can filter through what's helpful to me and what's not. That's the part that you have to learn. That's still internal decision-making of I am not taking this advice. Thank you, but no to this. This is the 10% nugget that's helpful. That is the skill. That's what I want for them. Although I think it's what I also cultivate for them to want for themselves. And that's what we see. And that's what's so fun about it. It's, "You know what? I just decided I was going to do X". I'm like, yes! Go get it.

Lisa Bodnar:

It's obviously really inspiring to see people fly.

Kemi Doll:

Oh yes.

Lisa Bodnar:

Does it Ever get discouraging? Do you ever feel exhausted?

Kemi Doll:

Oh man. I love this question. Part of it is that I'm making the connection as a coach. Not a friend and not a mentor. And I think that's really different. So one, I think a mentor can do a really good job of showing you how they did it and showing you what lessons they learned from how they did it. So it's not necessarily do exactly what I do, but a mentor can say, do exactly what I do, and also don't do this cause it didn't go well for me. I think a mentor also- well, a good one- is there to really connect with you and be this empathetic person that wants to hear about your challenges and all of those things. I think that's great.

Kemi Doll:

I also think that there is a lot, like you said, there could be a lot of fatigue built into that. Mostly because the way that we've set up mentor relationships and I think a lot of the ways that they act is that people come to the mentor for answers. I don't think that that's what a coach does. I think what a coach does is help you develop your ability to answer questions for yourself. A lot of that is actually asking you questions and holding space. And being able to help you figure out "What do I really want?" And then once you do, give you a million tools to help get it going. So the thing keeping me from getting discouraged is one, just recognizing that as a coach, that is my job, it's not about me.

Kemi Doll:

I'm a human being and I'm inside my head I'm like, "Go, go, go! I just want you to win!" But at the same time, if we're hitting up against some resistance, if we're hitting up against some challenge, I also know if I am trying to drag you along, "I know you don't believe this, but it'll be fine, it'll be fine, it'll be fine", then we're not getting anywhere. We're actually creating another codependent relationship. But if I can actually manage my own feelings, which is: I see this challenge in front of you, and I can sit there and cheer lead you up and over it. Then, you don't need me the next time the wall pops up and that's so much more satisfying. So does it take energy? For sure. My coaching programs are hybrid, there's group, there's one-on-one. I put a lot of thought and I have a curriculum. There's a lot of thought when we get together on the group coaching calls and thinking about: how do I facilitate connection?; how do I facilitate those mental transformations in a group?. And then, one-on-one.

Kemi Doll:

There's a lot of thought about: how do I understand, not necessarily what you're saying you want, but what's underneath? What's underneath this issue so we can find that. Because a lot of times the things that we're hitting up against, there are common underlying issues. There's a common underlying issue of me not believing in my own work. There's a common underlying issue of being afraid, we all have this afraid of getting in trouble thing. It's crazy how many times this is the problem, and at the root of it is, I'm basically afraid I'm going to get in trouble. And I'm like, okay, you're my people. Cause I get it, I also don't [inaudible 00:15:55] get in trouble right? Achievers!

Kemi Doll:

Helping clients see those things is so powerful, because then they stop focusing on all of the details. They stopped focusing on, it's because of this person, or this particular thing, or this paper, or all that stuff. They start to understand like, oh no, this is about me being scared of getting in trouble. Then, once we're there, it's like, all right, so what kind of life are we trying to lead? What kind of career are we trying to lead? I think when it's really popping, when I'm like, "Oh my gosh, chef's kiss", is when we get there. And I'm like, okay, so now what do you want to do? And they're just like, "Oh, I'm going to A, B, C, D, E, F, G". And I'm like, great! And that's always really good because sometimes the stuff that they say is not even the stuff that initially came up for me that I would have just given advice for. So it's so much better. Cause I'm like, see, I'm so glad I didn't just jump and tell you what to do.

Lisa Bodnar:

What pieces of your own advice do you have a hard time following?

Kemi Doll:

Like 98%? No, I'm just kidding. So I think there are different seasons where I feel vulnerable to different things. I'll say that. For example, right now I'm in this place where I just got a big award, my first big, R-level awards, two of them, and one of them is a multi-site randomized control trial. Girl, what in the hell? The number of times that I sit down to do work on Sister or do something, and I'm like, Kemi Doll, who did you convince to give you millions of dollars? The number of times! That's just a place where I just so deeply empathize with them. I guess I would say it's not so much a hard time taking my advice, but it's really apt of me to remember some of the techniques.

Kemi Doll:

Which is one, get the facts. Which is that you were awarded this by an institution that is in many ways harder than the NIH to get funding from. So I think that, you know something about what you're doing. Number two girl, you're in charge. Even if it was a mistake, it's happening. So what are you going to do? Do a terrible job? That's the other one. It's get the facts, but then, also just accept reality. You have the opportunity. So now it's your job to make it happen. And then the third thing is that you can lead while learning. That's really active for me right now. Cause I am in shock, I have to lead. The worst thing I could do for this study is to say, I don't really know what I'm doing and continue in every meeting, advocate to somebody else in every decision. That's the worst thing I could do.

Kemi Doll:

So I'm in a place right now where I'm reminding myself, you can lead while learning, and actually you will lead so much better by learning. Cause the curiosity is there, right? I'm so interested in the why of everything, not the just do it this way. I'm like, okay, but why are we doing the IRB this way? Okay. What are the ramifications? All of those things are really active for me right now. So I would say that's one of them.

Kemi Doll:

Sometimes I have to remind myself about my lane. So this is, this actually gets a little bit more into my more advanced groups. I have two different coaching groups. So it gets more to that advanced group where, once people realize that you are great and you can do a lot of stuff, you get a lot of opportunities. The opportunities, just keep coming, just keep coming, just keep coming. And it's a whole different skillset. At the beginning they tell you to say no to the things that you don't want to do. Sure, fine. Got that. It's a whole different skillset to have so many things that you could do. And that are very interesting. So we've already gotten rid of all the no's, but then what do you do with all of the "kind-of-yes", "ooh-super-exciting", "maybe-very-exciting". What if everything feels exciting, cause it's all aligned? Now, how do you do that? I feel like that's another area that's active for me because it's like another layer of sophistication.

Lisa Bodnar:

Yeah. Oh, I love saying active. It just reminds you that this is a practice.

Kemi Doll:

Yeah, yes.

Lisa Bodnar:

We need to keep practicing these things, but oftentimes we don't master it our whole lives.

Kemi Doll:

Yes, I agree. It's kind of like yoga too. You don't just get it, check the box, and keep moving. It is true that there are some things that have become more integrated. I don't think about productivity on a daily basis anymore. I have my system, it works. I just keep moving. But, we're supposed to keep growing, especially academics. It's always interesting to me. I'm like, y'all, you want to be in academics. You want to learn things and grow. That means that you want to grow personally. Otherwise, we're really not capitalizing on all that's available to us in these insane careers where people pay you to ask questions and find stuff out. I remind my clients! They're like, "Oh my God, there's" ... Lisa, how much drama is there around grants? I mean, I get it. I have it too. In the sense of oppression. Like, "Oh my gosh, I have to get this funding". I'm like, I just want to remind us all that this is a process where you write either six or twelve pages and somebody gives you millions of dollars.

Kemi Doll:

For most of them, there's no presentation. Not any more, right? Not all of them are like this, but for most, literally you are putting together a document for somebody to give you millions of dollars. And that's just financially, right? That's not the career prestige. That's not the job security. That's not all those other things. So let's just be okay with the fact that it's a big deal. Let's just be okay with the fact that yeah, you're going to rewrite that specific aims page 10 times. This is a lot of money on the line here, right? I don't even know where I came here, but anyway.

Lisa Bodnar:

That's okay, I don't know. You're blowing my mind.

Kemi Doll:

I'm Just so excited that you edit these. Cause I feel like I'm just going to keep talking.

Lisa Bodnar:

I was literally thinking, as you were talking, this... I can tell why you're so successful at this job Kemi. You're so good at this. Oh my gosh. You're inspiring me. I'll give you $60 at least.

Kemi Doll:

Don't get me any money. That's really funny.

Lisa Bodnar:

$500 from me. I need to write you a big fuckin' fat check, and we're good to go.

Lisa Bodnar:

What's something you think is overrated?

Kemi Doll:

The Beatles. The way that people talked about the Beatles. And then when I listened to the music, I was like, this is what we've been talking ... This? That's it? And when I compare that to other musicians around that time, I'm sorry. I'm so much more compelled, and there's it's shade. I'm not moved.

Lisa Bodnar:

Would you rather have a rewind button on your life or a pause button?

Kemi Doll:

Oh girl, pause. We are not going back!

Lisa Bodnar:

That's how I feel.

Kemi Doll:

The only reason I would go back is to remember what it's like to sleep in on the weekends and not have kids. There's probably some three week window where I was sleeping in, I didn't have kids, and also for some reason, not thinking, perseverating about my future, my life. Maybe, but I don't even know if that's real. So no, pause. Pause, always. I will pause and I will go to the spa. I will do a billion other things, but for sure, pause. I have worked too hard to go backwards.

Lisa Bodnar:

I don't want to go back. And also, I was kind of a mess back then.

Kemi Doll:

How many times I look back and I'm like, Kenny, you're amazing. Because I remember my brain, the kinds of thoughts that I would have. And all of that stuff combined with eating absolute trash, right? Combined with not having the greatest friends, combined with all of those things. And I'm like, look where you made it to.

Lisa Bodnar:

And don't you think we're going to keep getting better?

Kemi Doll:

Yeah. That's actually how I get through hard times. I mean, really, it's not that it doesn't suck, so going to be really clear. But it is true at this point, when something really is bad, there is a part of me that is like, okay, at least I know it's going to be even better on the other side. I am now very clear that I'm not going to come back to where I was. I'm going to come back to better. So that's how I'm going to get through this current utter trash.

Lisa Bodnar:

When I'm in the current utter trash, I've been telling myself, this is what living life is. Living life is the ups and downs. Don't wish these things away. You're going to learn from it. You're going to move on. And the feelings, the sad feelings, the joyous feelings, that's what living is!

Kemi Doll:

Yes, unfortunately I agree with you. And I remind myself, contrast is where desire is born. If you don't have what you don't want, you don't know what you do. I remind myself of that.

Kemi Doll:

There's like that whole analogy with the heartbeat. On an EKG, your heartbeat looks like this, goes up and down and pulses. And so that's life. An EKG with a flat line is asystole. That's death, right? I literally remember, I'm like, by the way, this means you're alive. We think that's what we want. We think we want flat line. No, that's literal death. I talked to my clients about this. Right? That's that's where I come back. She was like, well, at least I'm alive, I'm growing.

Lisa Bodnar:

I don't know how I'm going to go to sleep tonight. Is your car messy?

Kemi Doll:

I have two kids, two and six. My car is disgusting. It's full of books, half-eaten eaten goldfish, mud from boots. Cause we live in Seattle. It's a mess.

Lisa Bodnar:

Do you have a sippy cup?

Kemi Doll:

There's multiple different parts of sippy cups in different places. And now the whole mask thing. So there are just masks everywhere. Half of them literally have goldfish on them, cause my daughter chews her mask. Why would you not? You put a face covering. Yeah, no, it's gross.

Lisa Bodnar:

I'm going to list a bunch of things. And I want you to tell me yes or no after each.

Kemi Doll:

Okay.

Lisa Bodnar:

Raw cookie dough.

Kemi Doll:

No.

Lisa Bodnar:

Raw cake batter.

Kemi Doll:

No!

Lisa Bodnar:

Raw fish.

Kemi Doll:

No. Can I just say something? We discovered fire a long time ago. I'm just saying. Humans discovered fire and the ability to eat, to be able to cook food. And I honor the cultures that have had this whole... I get... But the raw piece is where you're pulling me out every time.

Lisa Bodnar:

Talking to people in a public bathroom.

Kemi Doll:

Oh my gosh. No! Can we please stop doing this?

Lisa Bodnar:

Right!

Kemi Doll:

Can I just have my private moment? Can I just take care of my bodily functions? I understand that when we were 21 and like two months and you're in the club- and I was in New York city at this time- and it's 2:00 AM and everybody's drunk. And, yes, your best friend comes out of the stall. People just chit chat, you know that moment.

Lisa Bodnar:

Or you use the same stall.

Kemi Doll:

The bathroom becomes this magical gathering place where you meet ... I get that, but we're not there anymore. That is not what's happening. It is simply three o'clock in the afternoon. We're all at this conference and I just want to pee.

Lisa Bodnar:

And someone goes into a stall next to you and they keep talking, and I'm like, shut up, this is weird!

Kemi Doll:

It's just so weird. No, I just prefer to do my business and just keep going. And you know, people would be like, hi, hey, but can we just keep it moving?

Lisa Bodnar:

Hallmark movies?

Kemi Doll:

I mean, does Bridgerton count because Bridgerton is so good. I probably read 16 000 romance novels between the age of eight and 19. Bridgerton is like inserting heroin into my... It's like inserting my 18 year old romance novel, never-been-kissed self. It's like inserting that and being like here you go. I was down for it a hundred percent.

Lisa Bodnar:

The duke?

Kemi Doll:

Listen, I cannot even. First of all, Shonda Rhimes is a genius. Second of all, I just sat there and thought to myself, how did it take this long for them to figure out... You got a multi-billion dollar romance, novel industry. How did it take you this long to figure out this formula? Because, let me tell you, I'm in. That's the thing. They're not the male gaze. And so they're like, we know what you want and we're going to perform accordingly.

Lisa Bodnar:

And, we know what you don't get from other places.

Kemi Doll:

Yes, exactly. And that's why I'm just here for it, for what it is. I'm not going to make any kind of culture analysis, because ... problematic. But I am here for it. I am here for it for, again, the 18 year old in me that read romance novels from sunup to sundown.

Lisa Bodnar:

Kemi, thank you so much for being on my show.

Kemi Doll:

You're so welcome. Thank you for inviting me. It has been a pleasure.

Kemi Doll:

Did that make sense?

Lisa Bodnar:

Of course it did. I'm sitting here going like, "I wonder if she would hire me and teach me how to coach. I'll come here, she can take half the profits".

Kemi Doll:

I love the entrepreneurial mindset. What's that, this business structure.