Shiny Epi People
Shiny Epi People
Melissa Ward, PhD on divorce in her early career and Goop's Yoni Egg
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, my God. Do you have a glass of wine?
Melissa Ward:
I have a glass of wine.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. Well then I'm going to go get one too, I was literally like it's 11:00 AM I probably-
Melissa Ward:
I mean.
Lisa Bodnar:
It's fine. I'm going to go get one.
Lisa Bodnar:
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Shiny Epi People. I'm Lisa Bodnar. Today is the last full episode of season one of Shiny Epi People. I'm at 40 episodes, 41 if you count the bonus episode with my nine-year-old daughter, and it felt like the right time to take a breather. Tomorrow is my 45th birthday and Mother's Day and wrapping up the show is a really great gift to myself. I'm going to put out a very short recording next week that summarizes my feelings about the show and the journey it has taken me on in the past nine months, for those of you who may be interested. I will also tell you about a couple of summer episodes I planned to put out to keep us connected. And I promise that I will be back for a second season of the show, but I'm not sure when. If you follow the show on Instagram or Twitter at Shiny Epi People, or if you're a patron of the show, I will keep you abreast of the timeline.
Lisa Bodnar:
I felt that it was very fitting to end season one today with my conversation with Melissa Ward. Melissa is completing her post-doc in the Community Based Research Institute at Florida International University. And in a few short months, she will be an assistant professor in FIU's Department of Epidemiology. Melissa is a social epidemiologist, and she is interested in disparities and access to treatment for substance use disorders and women's health. She completed her MPH in global health policy from George Washington University and her PhD in Public Health with a concentration in epidemiology, from FIU in 2017. Melissa is open and vulnerable in this episode, sharing her personal experience of the sudden end to her marriage early in her post-doc. She talks about the mixed emotions that she has made space for, in particular the feelings of grief and joy simultaneously, and how therapy has helped her through this rough patch. She is also damn funny and willing to be goofy and authentic. We laugh so much together, and I think my conversation with her really encapsulates the heart of this show and what I've tried to put together for the past nine months and for the last time and a little while. I hope you enjoy this chat.
Lisa Bodnar:
Hi, Melissa.
Melissa Ward:
Hi Lisa.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'm so glad that you're here.
Melissa Ward:
I'm happy to be here.
Lisa Bodnar:
I was thinking we've not met in person. We've only met quote-on-quote on Twitter.
Melissa Ward:
By the way, who founded Epi Twitter? I don't know where this thing started, but it's like, it's just such a beautiful thing. Anyway, I was in the middle of a really confusing part in my whole divorce story. And you tweeted something about, the moment you knew it was the right thing and you sort of were ready to move on, and you signed the papers and you knew. I was in the middle of this very confusing moment and I was like, maybe this will happen for me one day. So I screenshot the tweet, when you're in the middle of that stuff, it's just like you hold on to any hope.
Melissa Ward:
And then a few months later, I hit that point where it was like, okay, this is it, this is the right thing.
Lisa Bodnar:
Can you tell me the timeline roughly for when all of this was happening for you ?
Melissa Ward:
Around the spring of 2019, things started falling apart and I didn't see it coming at all. One day, things just fell apart, and then in the span of about two months, the marriage was over. I had just gotten my first grant as a PI. And so when this started happening, I was like, Oh shit how am I going to handle that, and a divorce at the same time ? It was a really interesting and scary time, when I listened to the episode with Matt Fox about kindness, I really reflected on how important that was for me, getting through that really rough period.
Melissa Ward:
Luckily I was with a really supportive group of my research team the [inaudible 00:05:08] working was really supportive, which was great. Even just random acts of kindness. I remember wandering through Ikea one day, I just decided I'm just going to buy all new bedroom furniture. And somehow I thought it would be a good idea to go to Ikea by myself to do this. I'm wandering through Ikea, I load up my cart and then I have all of this giant shit in my cart that I have to get into my car. Yeah. Huge and heavy, I got to my car and I almost just wanted to burst into tears, how am I going to do this? And some really kind of woman in the car parked next to me, helped me put my stuff into my car and I will never forget. Having gone through the whole experience, it just really makes you want to be sort of support system for whoever has to go through this next.
Lisa Bodnar:
When you first realized that the separation divorce was happening, what were you worried most about?
Melissa Ward:
So professionally, I just felt like I was going to screw everything up. I wasn't going to successfully pull off implementing my first grant. And then that would lead to me screwing up the rest of my career. And, just all of the fears that go along with that, that I wasn't going to be productive enough. I think I managed to stay out of a depression, but barely like I could feel myself going into it and then immediately had to put some stuff in place to pull myself out of that. But it's just, I think it was just a tremendous amount of grief. There were days where I felt physically dizzy, I had never experienced, I think a deep grief before. And it sort of just sucks you in, in very strange ways, I would randomly just start crying, but then I also got really good at timing my crying. So like I-
Lisa Bodnar:
I did that too.
Melissa Ward:
Right and so somehow I got really good at crying on the way to work, but just at the right amount of time where I could sort of dry my eyes and then get into my office without looking like I had this big crying. Yeah, it was so weird.
Lisa Bodnar:
When you got into work, were you able to focus?
Melissa Ward:
I think it depended on the day. I definitely let all of my bosses know what was going on and I told them, listen if my performance starts falling off, please let me know. And one of my bosses and mentors was like, you normally perform at such a high level. If you drop it down a few notches, it's probably going to be okay. So don't worry too much about it.
Lisa Bodnar:
How did it feel sharing this with people when it was such a shock to you?
Melissa Ward:
So I think this is where Brene Brown comes in.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh yes, bring her in.
Melissa Ward:
So I started reading Brene Brown around 2017. One of her things is that you're only vulnerable with people who've earned it and who you know will respect your vulnerability. And so for me, it was a very, I was very strategic in who I shared with that I was going through this. It wasn't until after I had fully processed things and spent about a year in therapy that I really sort of shared widely.
Lisa Bodnar:
I remember that when my marriage ended that this frame of like a failed marriage came into my head or you hear people say that and I think like, we're all told this stupid story. That's like, everyone should be married 50 years. That's what we should all be aiming for. And I just didn't buy it. There isn't a gold standard for what marriage should be. I guess the idea of a marriage failing is something I was wondering if you had felt.
Melissa Ward:
Absolutely. So I grew up in a really conservative white evangelical church environment. And with that comes all sorts of really unhealthy beliefs around marriage. And just what that is supposed to look like, what the role of the woman is supposed to look like, how hard you're supposed to fight. All of a sudden I realized I had all sorts of internalized stigma against divorce that I didn't even know I had, there were all sorts of things I had to unlearn around. How long do I keep fighting for this? How long do I, when do I let go? It's okay that this is ending. I'm not going to hell, like all sorts of internalized stigma. I had to process a lot of, of things that these deeply rooted beliefs that I grew up with around marriage and relationships and what that's supposed to look like. So yeah, absolutely.
Lisa Bodnar:
How did the divorce change you?
Melissa Ward:
It just made me a more empathic person. I live a generally privileged life and haven't had that many struggles and to have this glimpse into this world of pain, again Brene Brown defines empathy as you don't have to have experienced what the other person experienced, but you have to be able to connect with something inside of yourself that triggers the same emotions that that other person is feeling. And so I feel like I have this experience now where I can tap into, and it's not the same emotion, it's not the same struggle. It's different, but I can sort of at least tap into a similar emotion to what another person is dealing with and I can sort of sit with them in that pain a little bit better. So I think it's made me a kinder, more empathic person.
Melissa Ward:
And it's really made me to want to be one day that mentor or that boss, that someone can come into my office and tell me something and they can just cry and it's okay and I'll help them figure out how to navigate it. I also read Glennon Doyle's Untamed.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
Melissa Ward:
Right when it came out and I was sort of like at the end of this process and tapping into a little bit more of what I want and then going after what I want.
Lisa Bodnar:
Let's talk about, you told me that you have fallen in love during the pandemic.
Melissa Ward:
Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
So this kind of duality of joy and grief, I find to be really interesting because I think that we, as humans like to think of we have an emotion and it's easier to just imagine it as, that's the one thing we're going through right now. We're going through grief or we having a lot of joy in our lives. But the idea of processing both of those things at the same time, which it sounds like that's what you did, is that right?
Melissa Ward:
Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think so going back to 2019 and the divorce, I think one decision that I made going through that season was, and this is another result of therapy and Brene Brown and stuff, but I made the decision that I'm going to feel all of the things, I'm going to go through this process and it's going to suck, but that's how I'm going to get to the other side and like be able to be a whole human being at the end of this. And so I was just sort of like, I'm going to embrace, I'm going to brace all this shittiness and just feel it all.
Melissa Ward:
I think this is something we, as sort of as a society are going to have to really learn to sit with both the joy and the grief. If you just think about half a million people dead in the last year from this horrible pandemic. I just, sometimes they just think about the level of grief that we're going to all be living with for the next-
Lisa Bodnar:
Decade.
Melissa Ward:
Decade.
Lisa Bodnar:
Two decades, I don't know.
Melissa Ward:
Who knows, right. I think we do have to figure out how to be able to process both things and hold the joy and the grief at the same time and recognize that it's okay to feel both happy and sad at the same time. It's something that's totally possible.
Lisa Bodnar:
So what can you share?
Melissa Ward:
Okay. So someone who an acquaintance that I had sort of briefly run into a few times, I realized that I really wanted to date him, that I was interested in this person, but I sort of had this sense that he wasn't going to, really initiate anything and that I sort of needed to do it. Having gone through this whole process of like wanting to go after what I really wanted in life and things like that.
Melissa Ward:
And I had just finished reading untamed at that point. I was like, I'm a Goddamn cheetah, I'm going to flirt with this guy, so I started.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
Melissa Ward:
We're texting back and forth. And then I just started sending flirtatious text messages. I'm like, let's see what happens.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
Melissa Ward:
And it worked. Yeah. We started dating and dating in the time of a pandemic at that point. We thought it would be over pretty quickly at that point.
Lisa Bodnar:
So we were also dumb.
Melissa Ward:
We were also done. And so in the beginning it was sort of like, oh after the pandemic is over, but then it sort of evolved into watching Tiger King together over the phone, going on a very physically distant block. And by that point it was clear that the pandemic was, it wasn't going to be over quickly. And so we decided, we were both observing protocols and being very safe. And so we, we started seeing each other in person and we've been dating for over a year now and it's been really great.
Melissa Ward:
But as far as the whole joy and grief thing, there were moments where I was still grieving this chapter that had just ended. We had a few interesting and tough conversations about that. Like trying to communicate very early on in a relationship, I'm feeling this way, but I am totally in love with you. And I'm very happy, but also I'm still just processing the end of this thing.
Lisa Bodnar:
Can you say some words about how maybe you coped through that or how others might consider coping through it.
Melissa Ward:
The advice I would tell people is be kind to yourself.
Lisa Bodnar:
What does that look like?
Melissa Ward:
I mean and it's something I have to constantly work on. Like I have to, I don't, it's not my go-to, but I think it's the self-talk, it's the way that it has been described to me is, what would you say to someone you love who was in your same situation and say that to yourself, just like remembering when I'm like, oh, I'm not doing enough. I'm not being productive enough. I'm not recognizing that when you're dealing with grief or when you're dealing with adversity, that's a very real thing that impacts your... I mean, the brain fog that comes along with it is, and so I think just coming back to you're doing the best that you can keep going, you're doing the best that you can. And then to just try to keep trudging along, if you can just keep moving, even if you feel like you're not moving fast enough.
Lisa Bodnar:
Melissa, what were you like as a kid?
Melissa Ward:
Okay. So my parents were evangelical missionaries. In many ways, I'm very grateful for that upbringing because I grew up very close to the suffering of other people. When people said, oh, eat your food because there's starving kids somewhere in the world who don't have food, like I'd actually met those kids. So I knew it was very real. And in many ways I'm very grateful for that and sort of the spirit of service that was sort of put into me as a very young. But I also grew up, I mean, I was basically trained to preach and tell people, try to like convert people. And I grew up thinking it was my responsibility to save my friends from going to hell.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh that's so much to put on a little person.
Melissa Ward:
Yes and I was very serious and I was, paid very close attention to rules. So I've had to unlearn a lot of that in therapy. I was very serious about my faith and religion, I think until early in college. And I started meeting people who were different from me, I remember meeting my first gay friend in college and thinking, wait a second. He's so wonderful and loving. And all he wants to do is love people. Like what is so wrong with this.
Melissa Ward:
Suddenly reality hit what I, all the beliefs that I had grown up with it, it just didn't make sense anymore. And so I think it just started this journey of unlearning. I remember spending a summer in Uganda, volunteering with a missions group. I remember going into visiting a hospital and at some point on this tour, they mentioned that there was a whole obstetrics ward for women who had tried to give themselves abortions. And I remember just thinking to myself, okay I have all these feelings about this issue. I remember protesting in front of a planned parenthood clinic when I was like 12 years, 13 years old and hearing this story about this board of women. And I just thought to myself, there is more to this story that I have not been told if women would go to these extremes to terminate their pregnancies. Like there is stuff I don't know or understand, and I need to learn more.
Melissa Ward:
And then I went on to get my MPH in global health policy from GW and just continue to learn and evolve and just, yeah pretty much did a complete 180, but it was just this growing process of recognizing there was more in the world than what I had been told and then reconciling my faith and my beliefs in it. And I still consider myself a person of faith, it's just changed dramatically.
Lisa Bodnar:
All right, you want to talk about some fun stuff?
Melissa Ward:
Oh goodness. Okay. Yes. Every time I listen, it gets to this part where you're like rapid fire questions and I'm like, have slowly been studying them. Be interesting Melissa when it comes to rapid fire questions.
Lisa Bodnar:
You are so interesting. You don't need to try hard.
Melissa Ward:
Okay. Let's go.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. Let's go. Okay, let's go. Would you rather become a werewolf during a full moon or a zombie?
Melissa Ward:
A werewolf, and I'll tell you why. Because throughout the pandemic, my sister has talked me into watching the Vampire Diaries and there are werewolves in the vampire diaries who were pretty cool. And it is a struggle during the full moon, but and it's a painful experience.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. So first of all, Vampire Diaries, is this like a teenage kind of show?
Melissa Ward:
Yeah essentially, the vampires are really hot. There's a few problematic storylines in there. It's way better than Twilight. I will tell you, it sucks you in and yeah, it's a whole complicated story and there's werewolves and yeah. Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
So what is difficult for the werewolf at full moon time?
Melissa Ward:
Their entire body morphs into a Wolf, so it's painful.
Lisa Bodnar:
Is it really? Why is it painful?
Melissa Ward:
Because your body's doing all this stuff and like your bones are cracking.
Lisa Bodnar:
Because they get big, right?
Melissa Ward:
No. So it's like a real Wolf.
Lisa Bodnar:
And what do werewolves do when they turn into werewolf?
Melissa Ward:
I think they go like hunting for things. So it's this whole thing, if you're a really self-aware werewolf.
Lisa Bodnar:
Like a Brene Brown?
Melissa Ward:
Yeah. They will chain themselves up in a dungeon somewhere. So they don't so they don't hurt anyone when they turn into a werewolf.
Lisa Bodnar:
Wow. I didn't think we're going to get. [crosstalk 00:22:50]
Lisa Bodnar:
What do you think is a set of items that you could bring to a checkout at a drug store that would make the cashier most uncomfortable?
Melissa Ward:
Oh goodness. How do you come up with these questions Lisa, do you just sit around making a list? I feel like things to treat really weird. Like some antifungal foot cream, maybe combined with like a pregnancy test, maybe like a really big bottle of wine. So I might be pregnant, with the fungus. I don't know.
Lisa Bodnar:
Who would you most like to stand in a line for the bathroom with?
Melissa Ward:
I feel like Michelle Obama. Yeah, I feel like that'd be kind of cool. Because it's like low pressure, you don't have to seem super smart, but she's probably cracking a lot, really funny jokes under her breath about the people that you're standing in line with or like why the line to the women's restroom is so long with the men's is like not at all.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. She would totally be saying that.
Melissa Ward:
Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'm going to say a few things and after each you tell me yes or no.
Melissa Ward:
Okay. Sounds good.
Lisa Bodnar:
Stephen King books?
Melissa Ward:
Generally, no.
Lisa Bodnar:
Kanye west.
Melissa Ward:
No.
Lisa Bodnar:
Watching golf on TV.
Melissa Ward:
No.
Lisa Bodnar:
Coconut water.
Melissa Ward:
I am a huge Elizabeth Warren fan and Elizabeth Warren loves coconut water and if Elizabeth Warren loves coconut water, it can't be, it can't be bad.
Lisa Bodnar:
Cisgendered white men.
Melissa Ward:
No. Well, I'm dating one. I mean they have their moments.
Lisa Bodnar:
In general, no.
Melissa Ward:
In general.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. That's fine.
Melissa Ward:
Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
Let's follow it up with tuna salad.
Melissa Ward:
Yeah. Yeah, I can do tuna salad.
Lisa Bodnar:
Button fly jeans.
Melissa Ward:
No too much work.
Lisa Bodnar:
Cheese Danishes.
Melissa Ward:
Yes, absolutely.
Lisa Bodnar:
I never understood a cheese Danish. Why would anyone want cheese in a Danish?
Melissa Ward:
Well, it's not. It's sort of like a cream. I feel like also there's a difference between the sort of cheap Danishes you get at like a conference reception and like a real Danish from a bakery.
Lisa Bodnar:
Meghan Markle.
Melissa Ward:
Oh, I love her.
Lisa Bodnar:
Kate Middleton.
Melissa Ward:
I kind of like her, but my opinion of her has gone down a few notches since that Oprah interview.
Lisa Bodnar:
I agree. Are you a Royals watcher in general?
Melissa Ward:
I mean okay, I love The Crown.
Lisa Bodnar:
Me too.
Melissa Ward:
I love The Crown, I think it's so great. I know some of it, most of it is fiction, but then again after that Oprah interview is like, The Crown is real. This is real, inside sources. My grandmother in South Africa loves the royals. So since I found this out about her, I've sort of been paying more attention so that, we have like a fun topic of conversation.
Lisa Bodnar:
That's cute. I'm pretty into Diana and like the parallels now with Meghan.
Melissa Ward:
Oh my goodness.
Lisa Bodnar:
Good for them.
Melissa Ward:
Good for Harry. He made the right call.
Lisa Bodnar:
He did.
Melissa Ward:
That is one really great cisgender white man.
Lisa Bodnar:
Has he done other bad things?
Melissa Ward:
I'm sure he does. He has done some pretty sketchy, there was like a Halloween costume. That was unfortunate.
Lisa Bodnar:
Gwyneth Paltrow.
Melissa Ward:
No, absolutely not.
Lisa Bodnar:
No.
Melissa Ward:
Her Goop bullshit. Or is it gooper, What is it called?
Lisa Bodnar:
Its Goop.
Melissa Ward:
Oh God, the eggs you stick up. Like come on, no.
Lisa Bodnar:
Eggs you stick up what?
Melissa Ward:
Your vagina.
Lisa Bodnar:
Eggs?
Melissa Ward:
She sells us jade eggs. I don't even know what they're for but that's what they do.
Lisa Bodnar:
Wait, there's a jade.
Melissa Ward:
It's some sort of sown that she convinced women, it would be a good idea.
Lisa Bodnar:
What?
Melissa Ward:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
For why?
Melissa Ward:
I don't know, I don't understand.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'm going to, okay. I'm going to look this up right now.
Melissa Ward:
It's crazy, I'm pretty sure.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh my God, there it is. Joni eggs harness the power of energy work, crystal healing and Keagle like physical practice.
Melissa Ward:
Read the steps, Lisa.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh my God. Step one, wash your egg with soap and water, after place it in hot water for about 10 minutes. Let it cool. Step two. This is lovely, are you ready? Gently insert the egg into your vagina. The slightly larger side of the egg first, work your pelvic floor.
Melissa Ward:
And feel the connection with your body.
Lisa Bodnar:
Build up a practice, if this brings joy, keep it in or on a space that is sacred to you or has good vibes.
Melissa Ward:
Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope.
Lisa Bodnar:
And how much does this thing cost?
Melissa Ward:
$66.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay wait, I just Googled this. And there's an article in Vox, it's called goop was fined $145,000 for its claims about jade eggs for vaginas. It's still selling them.
Melissa Ward:
It's crazy.
Lisa Bodnar:
Goop is worth $250 million. This was so much fun to get to know you finally.
Melissa Ward:
So great to chat with you.
Lisa Bodnar:
We would create such better research environments. We do more impactful work, our students would be better off. Our colleagues would be better off if everyone would just go fricking therapy and do some work. Man do the work. Oh.
