Shiny Epi People
Shiny Epi People
Updates from Tim Sheahan!
Hi everyone! Happy summer! I have been releasing update episodes this summer for supporters via my Patreon (www.patreon.com/shinyepipeople). I decided to publish this summer bonus episode for all listeners because it is poignant and timely. I caught up with coronavirus researcher Tim Sheahan, who recorded with me back in fall 2020, when the pandemic was raging. In this conversation, Tim gives me updates on his work in the lab and how he is managing to balance work and life. But more importantly, he shows us the emotional toll that the pandemic has taken on him, a front-line worker, and the worry he has about his unvaccinated children. It is honest and vulnerable and everything this show is about. I can't wait for you to listen and feel deeply.
Tim Sheahan:
I could yell.
Lisa Bodnar:
Don't yell then you're just going to distort it and then I'll be like, "Fuck, now we have to do this again."
Tim Sheahan:
Good luck editing that.
Lisa Bodnar:
Dude, I'm so over editing. I'm so over it. I edited a couple of these update episodes for three hours and I wanted to throw my computer against the wall. I was like, "I hate this."
Hi there.
Tim Sheahan:
Hi. How's the beach?
Lisa Bodnar:
The beach is great. I'm going to show you. I'm going to turn ... okay. Hold on. There we go.
Tim Sheahan:
Oh yeah. Nice.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah, it's pretty. It's super pretty out there. I'm in here recording because you know why?
Tim Sheahan:
Yay.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'm dedicated to my craft.
Tim Sheahan:
I thought you were on break of making your podcast, so.
Lisa Bodnar:
I am, but you know what?
Tim Sheahan:
You can't get away.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'm following the desires of the people.
Tim Sheahan:
They need you.
Lisa Bodnar:
Sure they do. So I'm recording out of my bedroom on the top of a mini fridge so this is a pretty sweet setup. Because you have little kids, I thought you might appreciate this though. Maybe because you have a partner that helps with your sunscreen. Maybe this isn't an issue, but this is what happens when you ask a 13 year old to put sunscreen on your back. Are you ready?
Tim Sheahan:
I'm ready.
Lisa Bodnar:
Do you see this?
Tim Sheahan:
I see some redness there. Wow.
Lisa Bodnar:
But you see a line?
Tim Sheahan:
Oh, yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
A non-redness, right? Here.
Tim Sheahan:
Uh-huh (affirmative). I think that's where the smear went.
Lisa Bodnar:
That's right.
Tim Sheahan:
Right.
Lisa Bodnar:
It's great.
Tim Sheahan:
Lately with my kids going to camp before, we'd put sunscreen on and it would just take so much time. Now I'm like, "You put your own on." And so they come home sunburned and that's the collateral damage but ...
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah, I hear you. What's up Tim Sheahan. It's great to see your face.
Tim Sheahan:
I don't know. I don't know what's up.
Lisa Bodnar:
I want to hear all the things.
Tim Sheahan:
There are so many.
Lisa Bodnar:
What is happening in the world of SARS-CoV-2 in your lab?
Tim Sheahan:
One of the major things we've been doing, I don't usually work on clinical trials and do that kind of work. But because we did the preclinical development for this drug called Molnupiravir in the lab, UNC decided to help run their phase two trial to just show that it had an antiviral effect in people. And so we ended up working on that and trying to figure out if there's a relationship between viral RNA. So most people, when you get a COVID test, they're just measuring RNA in your nose, but that doesn't tell you if that RNA is associated with an infectious virus or just like cells or non-infectious virus or just parts of the virus. So for the clinical trial to show that the drug is actually having antiviral effect, we also cultured infectious virus from the patient's sample.
So they did the COVID test on it. And then we tried to recover virus from it as another kind of added layer of information, just so we could figure out if it was working or not. I've been trying to work less and trying to have a better work-life balance so I don't work on the weekend anymore unless I really have to. And I try not to work at night unless I really have to just because it wasn't fun. It wasn't fun working all the time and it was really draining. The pressure to produce results and get data out there has eased up a little bit as we kind of relax and start doing more of the things we used to do which is basic science. Before, we would be doing things that were needed for FDA filings and to progress drugs into human clinical trial and stuff like that. So there's a lot of pressure to make data and do work. Now, that's chilled out a little bit. We can go back to doing the stuff that we used to do before, which isn't such high stakes stuff. We're doing stuff that no one cares about again.
Lisa Bodnar:
And that feels good.
Tim Sheahan:
Great. Great. I love doing stuff people don't care about.
Lisa Bodnar:
It's foundational, but no one is like ... yeah, yeah. I mean, people care about it in the sense that they need to do it in order to do the stuff that the public really knows about and cares about.
Tim Sheahan:
Right. Yeah. True.
Lisa Bodnar:
And how did the vaccine change things or did it?
Tim Sheahan:
I don't know if it did.
Lisa Bodnar:
Really?
Tim Sheahan:
No, I don't know if it did so much. I think people thought that the vaccine would be the end-all to this pandemic and that all of a sudden everybody would be vaccinated and the virus would go away and life would return back to normal and that's just not happening. And so I think there will be and is a continued need for antiviral drugs for coronavirus. And so, that's kind of sustaining the work that we do and have done in the past. And I think part of me thought, "Oh, that's just going to dry up. No one's going to care. The vaccine will be the thing that we really need and that it'll be the public health solution." And it seems to be for some people, but for other people it's not, so.
Lisa Bodnar:
So therefore, we're sort of all fucked.
Tim Sheahan:
Yep. Yep. I'm still excited about out what we're doing. I think the work that we're doing and have done in the past is really important, but not everybody feels that way anymore. I think early on in the pandemic, like most Americans were behind what we're doing and now they're not.
Lisa Bodnar:
Why do you feel that is?
Tim Sheahan:
Politics has kind of seeped into my work in a way that I never ever thought would happen.
Lisa Bodnar:
Can you describe it? Can you talk about any of it or you sworn to secrecy?
Tim Sheahan:
So for instance, last week I got my first freedom of information act request. There's a newspaper in Raleigh who wanted all my emails from January 2020 to May 2021.
Lisa Bodnar:
Whoa.
Tim Sheahan:
And-
Lisa Bodnar:
Wait, that's something they're allowed to request?
Tim Sheahan:
Yeah, because I work at a public institution.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh my God. Oh my God. I don't want anyone looking at my emails.
Tim Sheahan:
Yeah. So then they're like, if that's too broad and then they gave a list of 12 keywords.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh my God.
Tim Sheahan:
And so I'm unaware of any of this. I just get an email from a lawyer one day. They're like, "This came in. We went with the more redacted request and I'm going to send you a PDF of everything that we're sending.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh my God.
Tim Sheahan:
And so it ended up being like a 970 something page PDF of the boringest shit you've ever seen in your whole life. So I'm like, [crosstalk 00:07:55], at first I was like-
Lisa Bodnar:
Do you know what the keywords were?
Tim Sheahan:
Oh, it was all virus origin and stuff. So it's like Wuhan. It's all stuff related to lab leak theory, like someone in a lab made this virus kind of thing, but it is so boring. I was initially kind of scared, like what is in my email? I don't know. There's a whole bunch of stuff in there, but it turns out that it's incredibly boring and I don't know how you could make news from this, but I guess you'd be surprised what people make news of these days.
Lisa Bodnar:
Did you say anything in there that you felt like you regretted?
Tim Sheahan:
No, not at all.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay.
Tim Sheahan:
No. It was actually interesting to go back and look through kind of the emails and look at that like, what was I emailing about in January of 2020? And it turns out it was incredibly boring. People are concerned that our government paid for China to do virology that they don't want to support or basically, people are trying to dig to see if our government paid for people in China to create some super virus, basically like the conspiracy theory thing. So these are not things that you get trained on. When you get your training in coats to do academia, there's so much stuff that you are not trained to do like finances and running a research enterprise and human resources and managing people and all this stuff. It's just like they teach you the science and then they're like, "Oh, the other 95% of the job that's really important and time consuming, you don't get any training on and good luck."
Lisa Bodnar:
Right. You learn on the job and you learn by screwing up a lot.
Tim Sheahan:
Right. Exactly. And so now, on top of that, it's like dealing with media and politics and stuff like that, so.
Lisa Bodnar:
And podcasters. They're the worst.
Tim Sheahan:
Right. Some of them are.
Lisa Bodnar:
So right now, what are you worrying about the most?
Tim Sheahan:
I think one thing that I constantly grapple with is this situation and its ability to change. It's just evolving and changing all the time. So as new variants come online because of inadequate vaccine uptake and a whole bunch of other shit, it's not just like, I guess, uptake. Some countries just don't have vaccine that they need. We have created this situation to that kind of fosters new variant generation. And you don't know how these variants are going to behave in people until you have enough people that are infected by them. And then it's already too late. As a parent with a fourth grader and a second grader, until there's a pediatric vaccine available, I don't know how these new variants are going to behave in them.
Lisa Bodnar:
Do you want me to stop him? This must be so hard being on the front lines of all of this.
Tim Sheahan:
Monday, huh?
Lisa Bodnar:
It's right. Monday. Can I ask what you're feeling? You don't have to answer if you don't want.
Tim Sheahan:
I guess you just never know, right?
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
Tim Sheahan:
So you just wait and see.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. I'm wondering if, as a virologist working on this virus, that you feel like you should have more control over this or maybe that you wish ... I don't want to say this.
Tim Sheahan:
Oh, for sure.
Lisa Bodnar:
That you feel some level of responsibility and when it's personal with your children, that's really hard.
Tim Sheahan:
Yeah. That was an overwhelming feeling I think early on. That our community could have done something more, but I don't feel like that anymore. I don't feel that weight and personal responsibility anymore just because there are so many factors that kind of guided the trajectory of the pandemic, that are external and way beyond the reach of anybody like me, so.
Lisa Bodnar:
Did it take a little while to come to terms with that?
Tim Sheahan:
It did, but I seemed to have gotten over it. Yeah, but it was definitely super hard at first.
Lisa Bodnar:
For sure.
Tim Sheahan:
Like spring 2020.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. And you were working like a dog at the time and I'm sure some of that wasn't just ... you made promises to the CDC or funding agencies, but that you felt like you yourself could change this and I can totally imagine that.
Tim Sheahan:
Yeah. Just because there are only so many people early on who had the capability and the skills to do something. And I guess I was one of those people.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
Tim Sheahan:
Now, everybody does coronavirus, so there are a lot more people.
Lisa Bodnar:
Are they doing it well?
Tim Sheahan:
No.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
Tim Sheahan:
A lot of people aren't. I have an automatic PubMed search that comes into my inbox every Monday, like several searches are done automatically to send me hits for different search terms. And one of them is coronavirus antivirals or something like that. And now, every week there are 50 to 100 new papers. Most of them are complete. I don't even look at it anymore. I just automatically delete it because it's just like predatory journals and garbage, fake journals. It's just junk.
Lisa Bodnar:
God, that's so frustrating.
Tim Sheahan:
So, figuring out what to read and what to focus on is a challenge because the amount of literature that's getting dumped on your head is just unlike anything I've ever seen before.
Lisa Bodnar:
And you have the skills to be able to figure that out. I can't imagine what people are doing to try to interpret this science that's coming out, who don't have that skillset.
Tim Sheahan:
Yeah. I probably say no to 75 to 90% of the review requests that I get just because I don't have time. And so if ... and I know that my colleagues are in the same boat, so who's reviewing these things? Are they qualified? I don't know. I think my mom is reviewing papers now.
Lisa Bodnar:
You know what? I'm sure she's absorbed a lot listening to you.
Tim Sheahan:
Sure. Maybe I should have my kids read some papers.
Lisa Bodnar:
I think that wouldn't be a terrible idea.
Tim Sheahan:
Right.
Lisa Bodnar:
Just don't send them to me. I don't really want to get these review requests.
Tim Sheahan:
And even some of the ones that I say yes to, I'm really excited about based on the abstract. And then I actually read the paper and it's just terrible.
Lisa Bodnar:
Are you working directly with the Delta variant of the virus?
Tim Sheahan:
Yeah. Like I was saying before, once you understand one variant, it's like passé. But I think to increase impact and get the most out of your research, you pretty much have to embrace this moving target of studying variants. Even though I think people who are doing antibody and vaccine research and vaccine development, these things are obviously really important to those things. But for me, where most of the antiviral drugs that we've been working with, they don't target that part of the virus that is changing over time to [cross talk] immunity. I don't know. I'm not really explaining that well, but ...
Lisa Bodnar:
No, no, no. I get it. I get it as much as a nutritional epidemiologist can get it.
Tim Sheahan:
But I don't know. I think it's really hard to keep up with this state of things. And I used to do a really good job of reading the news related to coronavirus and keeping up with the literature and keeping track of the current data on variants and everything. And now, I just don't do it. I'm like delinquent. I'm sure there are people who are up to date and know this better than I do. I just don't have the bandwidth to keep up with that and do what I need to do every day.
Lisa Bodnar:
Is it a matter of time and kind of an emotional tapping outedness? How do we say this?
Tim Sheahan:
No, for sure.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay.
Tim Sheahan:
Yeah. I'm less just like tired. You can only think about coronavirus so much in a day. Before, it used to be okay for me to think about coronavirus all day at work and then go home and read about it at night, but now I just can't do it. And so something has to suffer from that and I'm okay with that. I can't know everything all the time.
Lisa Bodnar:
Good. I'm so glad you're cool with that because I can't imagine the level of stress that would cause otherwise. You just wouldn't be able to function. And what is bringing joy into your world now, Tim?
Tim Sheahan:
We went on a really killer vacation a few weeks ago to the mountains and it was extreme. My kids are old enough now that we can all go zip lining. We did this 17-mile bike ride all downhill in Virginia and they drive you to the top of a mountain with your bike and you ride down.
Lisa Bodnar:
Love that.
Tim Sheahan:
I'm doing lot a lot more like songwriting and guitar playing and playing music.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. Are you watching any bad TV or completely distracting yourself with silly shit?
Tim Sheahan:
We watched Succession.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes.
Tim Sheahan:
I thought that was [inaudible 00:20:21]. It was super funny.
Lisa Bodnar:
Ultra rich white people problems.
Tim Sheahan:
And they're so terrible.
Lisa Bodnar:
They are.
Tim Sheahan:
They're so terrible and that's funny.
Lisa Bodnar:
They are horrible human beings, and yet I must keep watching.
Tim Sheahan:
When you make a show like that and you make it such that you are invested and you care about terrible people, why is that? How is that a thing?
Lisa Bodnar:
I know.
Tim Sheahan:
There's some way to relate to them in a way that even though they're not supposed to be relatable, right? At least to me. I don't know. You might be super rich.
Lisa Bodnar:
No, I'm not super rich.
Tim Sheahan:
Right. You're speaking from your beach house on the ocean. Did you helicopter there?
Lisa Bodnar:
We helicopter here.
Tim Sheahan:
Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
And earlier, we rented out like a chalet.
Tim Sheahan:
Well, do you have your kids working in the Shiny Epi world?
Lisa Bodnar:
I should. And then it should be this like who inherits the show?
Tim Sheahan:
Good luck, Leila.
Lisa Bodnar:
Right. Leila's going to do it. You know it. You know she's the one that's going to be the-
Tim Sheahan:
COO.
Lisa Bodnar:
... be the COO.
Tim Sheahan:
CEO. I don't know.
Lisa Bodnar:
Like ... what's the younger brother's name on Succession?
Tim Sheahan:
Roman? Roman.
Lisa Bodnar:
Roman. Yeah. Do you remember when he got his office and what he did against the window? That was so gross. That show is so gross.
Tim Sheahan:
That's pretty gross.
Lisa Bodnar:
That was really gross for any listeners who know what we're talking about. And oh, speaking of the devil, come here. We were just talking about how you're going to take over the show someday.
Layla:
Hi.
Tim Sheahan:
Hey, Layla. What's up?
Leila:
Layla.
Tim Sheahan:
How's the beach.
Layla:
Good. A bit stormy.
Tim Sheahan:
How's your podcast?
Layla:
My podcast?
Tim Sheahan:
Yeah.
Layla:
I haven't started it yet.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. She wants to actually do her own podcast.
Tim Sheahan:
Got to get cracking.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. Say goodbye.
Layla:
Bye.
Tim Sheahan:
Bye. I'm encouraging her career in entertainment.
How is SER?
Lisa Bodnar:
Well, it was all virtual. So so sad. It was just-
Tim Sheahan:
But can you go on tour, though? Weren't you on some Lisa Bodnar Northeast 2021 tour or something like that?
Lisa Bodnar:
I just went to Boston and I got to see all of the BU and Harvard folks that I love seeing. So, I went there and I got to meet some of the Shiny Epi People guests that I had never met in real life before. And they all got to meet each other and we had a big, wonderful, long dinner and it was just so social and so much laughter and stories. It was great. And I actually got to meet my Pilates instructor in real life. So I started taking Pilates online when the pandemic happened. A friend of mine was like, "I think you should try these workouts and they were all on Instagram for free." I started working out with her six days a week and I've been following, been continuing ...
Tim Sheahan:
Wow, that's hardcore.
Lisa Bodnar:
I got to meet her in real life when I went to Boston. She had an outdoor class. This person, literally I spend like five hours with her every week.
Tim Sheahan:
Right. You spend more time with her than you do your kids.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes. Well, and the time spent with her is really quite joyful. No, I'm joking. But it's very ... selfish time, right? So, I enjoy the selfish time with her.
Tim Sheahan:
I got promoted. That's I guess big news.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. Why did you save that until 38 minutes in?
Tim Sheahan:
I forgot. I don't know. That's why there's still so much ... a lot of stuff has happened I think since we talked last, so. For better or worse, I am a Tenure-Track Assistant Professor in the Department of Epidemiology.
Lisa Bodnar:
Congratulations.
Tim Sheahan:
Thank you.
Lisa Bodnar:
Does being on the tenure clock worry you?
Tim Sheahan:
It does, only that I need to graduate a student. Finding the right student for me to share their committee and graduate them is challenging, given my lack of epidemiological expertise. But I think the department and everyone understands the situation and that we're like special people and we're going to just work together to make it work. But it had been how things work in academia. This has been in the works for like-
Lisa Bodnar:
Year and a half?
Tim Sheahan:
10 months or something like that. So it finally happened. And when it did, it was like, "Okay, that happened. What fires do I need to put out?"
Lisa Bodnar:
Moving right along. Your chair takes you to lunch and then you're like, "That's it."
Tim Sheahan:
Thanks.
Lisa Bodnar:
"Thanks. Actually, now that my salary has increased, now I have to support more of my salary." So I remember feeling like when I get a bump in pay, I'm like, "Yeah." And then I'm like, "Oh God damn it. It fucks with my budget now." My budget is screwed up.
Tim Sheahan:
And because you're trained in accounting-
Lisa Bodnar:
I know.
Tim Sheahan:
... it's no problem.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'm so happy that you did this with me. Thank you.
Tim Sheahan:
Yeah. Thanks for having me. It was nice to see you.
Lisa Bodnar:
You, too.
