Shiny Epi People
Shiny Epi People
Updates from Matt Fox and Mya Roberson!
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It's early September, and I'm still going to call this a summer episode! Today, you'll hear updates from Matt Fox and Mya Roberson. If you haven't listened to their original episodes way back in 2020, go have a listen. Matt and I talk some more here on kindness (or lack thereof) on Twitter, deli meat sheets, and superheroes. Mya finished her dissertation and got a faculty position since her first episode, so her update is especially great for trainees. We also meet her husband and her dogs. Enjoy this bonus!
Matt Fox:
Okay. Ready? You want to do the clap?
Lisa Bodnar:
Are we clapping on three? Are we clapping on three or are we clapping one, two, three, clap?
Matt Fox:
One, two, three then wait three seconds, and then clap.
Lisa Bodnar:
Which one is it? One, two, three clap or one, two, three clap on three?
Matt Fox:
No, no. One, two, three clap.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. You count.
Matt Fox:
Ready?
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
Matt Fox:
One, two, three.
Lisa Bodnar:
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Shiny Epi People, I'm Lisa Bodnar. I'm so thrilled that you're with me today. If you would like to support the show via a small financial donation, go to my Patreon page, which is at patreon.com/shinyepipeople. You can donate as little as a dollar a month. Another thing that you can do to help support the show is subscribe to the show. I did not realize that this is actually a measure that people look at, especially like sponsors look at to determine engagement. Also, if you could try downloading the show, you can delete it right afterwards if you want, but downloads actually matter. They count. And a lot of people listen and don't download. So consider doing that. And then finally, if you're on Apple Podcast, if you could please rate and review the show, that also makes a big difference in terms of people searching for the show and finding it faster when it has higher ratings.
So thank you for considering doing all of that. Also, I'm still selling those vinyl Shiny Epi People stickers, they're or hexagon shape, like the ones that you see on people's laptops sometimes. And if you would like to order one of those or multiple ones of those, please send me an email at shinyepipeople@gmail.com, or you can reach out to me via Instagram or Twitter. Today, I'm sharing with you two bonus episodes that I recorded this summer. One with Matt Fox and one with Mya Roberson. Each of these is really delightful, and I think you're going to enjoy them a lot. Matt and I follow up our discussion on kindness in academia and talk about a lot of other ridiculous stuff as usual. And Mya Roberson gives us an update on where she is right now.
You may remember that she was a doctoral student when I first talked with her back in 2020, and now Mya has graduated and she has accepted a tenure track faculty position. So if you're a trainee, this might be particularly interesting for you. We also meet Mya's dogs and she tells us how she got a pandemic dog, and we meet her husband too. If you haven't heard either of Matt's episodes that I recorded with him in 2020 or Mya's episode from 2020, please go back and listen. I think you'll really enjoy it and be reminded what wonderful people, Matt and Mya are. I hope you enjoy these chats. Okay, Matt. Hi.
Matt Fox:
Hi. How are you?
Lisa Bodnar:
This is your third time on my show.
Matt Fox:
Is that true? I thought that I was on every episode.
Lisa Bodnar:
No, this is the third one. As the saying goes, I think third time's a charm. I think your other episodes were middling.
Matt Fox:
At what point do we do my evaluation?
Lisa Bodnar:
Right. Yeah. I'd give you humor three out of five.
Matt Fox:
There's no humor. I went back and listened. I was not funny at all.
Lisa Bodnar:
You told me that you have never listened to either of your episodes.
Matt Fox:
I did say that. That is not technically true.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, you were lying. I think you had two beers and then you said it.
Matt Fox:
No, I've never had two beers in my life. I'm pretty sure that's true.
Lisa Bodnar:
You listened.
Matt Fox:
I did listen. It was a long time ago, but I listened, but I remember listening and I was not funny.
Lisa Bodnar:
Dude, you were so funny. I still go back and listen. And you're funny.
Matt Fox:
Okay. So can I tell you something?
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes.
Matt Fox:
The number of times since that episode, that I have had conversations with people as to what deli meat I would like for my bedsheets, it is like the perfect conversation starter.
Lisa Bodnar:
Well, so what do people say?
Matt Fox:
Well, most people that I have spoken to feel like turkey is the ideal deli meat. Some people want to go with cheese because-
Lisa Bodnar:
No, I said deli meat.
Matt Fox:
I know some people want to go with cheese. But the thing is cheese gets like sweaty.
Lisa Bodnar:
It does.
Matt Fox:
All deli meats get sweaty, but cheese more than deli meats, I think.
Lisa Bodnar:
Well, cheese is not sweaty if it stays in the fridge, cheese is really sweaty when it sits out. And I can only imagine it would get melty when you slept out-
Matt Fox:
Oh, that's kind of both gross and appetizing.
Lisa Bodnar:
Right. You wake up and you're like, hey.
Matt Fox:
Because melted cheese is delicious.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
Matt Fox:
Let's remember that.
Lisa Bodnar:
What else do people say about the deli meat sheets?
Matt Fox:
Most people just say that it's disgusting and the vegetarians really don't want have the conversation. So then you have to switch to tofu, I guess.
Lisa Bodnar:
Or maybe they want like a portabella mushroom to sleep on ?
Matt Fox:
What? Who doesn't want to sleep on a portabella mushroom? How do you pronounce the other, like it's not tofu, but it's like seiten.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh yeah. Seitan. Isn't that?
Matt Fox:
It's like the church lady. Seitan. But I've had a lot of conversations and then on top of that, so then I taught a, a course in which I set up polls to ask like icebreaker kind of polls. And I thought, "What am I going to ask these people?" So I just went back to prior episodes and I did polls from your podcast. So well done. You are-
Lisa Bodnar:
I love it.
Matt Fox:
I'm plagiarizing your podcast for my teaching.
Lisa Bodnar:
I feel good about that. And I do hope you gave me credit though.
Matt Fox:
I gave zero credit. I took complete credit, but yeah. Sorry about that.
Lisa Bodnar:
Well, you know the other thing that I said on one of our episodes was that I'm anti Batman.
Matt Fox:
Yeah. What is that all about?
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. I think that Batman has too much money and he's too moody. Don't you think?
Matt Fox:
No, that's what I like about... Well, not the money. I don't care about the money, but the moodiness is what I like about him.
Lisa Bodnar:
Why is he moody?
Matt Fox:
Because his parents were killed by the Joker. No, I can't remember who killed the parent.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, okay.
Matt Fox:
Yeah. He's got trauma that he's working through. So who in the universe of superheroes do you like?
Lisa Bodnar:
I don't know any because I don't follow them. What about Gru? Could I be Gru?
Matt Fox:
Gru is not a superhero.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes, he is.
Matt Fox:
He's not a superhero. First of all, he's bad.
Lisa Bodnar:
Gru.
Matt Fox:
He turns good, but he's bad.
Lisa Bodnar:
Really? Isn't he the tree?
Matt Fox:
Oh, we're talking about two different things here. What am I talking about?
Lisa Bodnar:
I don't know.
Matt Fox:
Is Gru the tree?
Lisa Bodnar:
Gru.
Matt Fox:
How do you spell Gru?
Lisa Bodnar:
I don't. G-R-U I think. I thought Gru was the tree.
Matt Fox:
No, wait. Gru is not coming up as a tree.
Lisa Bodnar:
What is that?
Matt Fox:
I thought Gru was the bad guy who turns good from the... What's the movie with Minions?
Lisa Bodnar:
Despicable Me.
Matt Fox:
Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
You're totally right. I just typed in Gru G-R-U and it comes up Gru, Despicable Me. Okay.
Matt Fox:
See?
Lisa Bodnar:
That's not who I meant. Who is the tree?
Matt Fox:
Hold on. I do know what you're talking about with the tree, but I never saw that movie. So I don't know. Groot.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, G-R-O-O-T.
Matt Fox:
Groot is like fictional character from... Hold on now. My internet is slow because you're sucking up all the bandwidth with the podcast.
Lisa Bodnar:
With my stupidity.
Matt Fox:
He's an extraterrestrial scientist tree-like creature,
Lisa Bodnar:
Right. This is who I want to be.
Matt Fox:
You want to be a tree?
Lisa Bodnar:
Well, like what's interesting about Groot is doesn't he like grow and then you can like hack off parts of him and then he's back small again?
Matt Fox:
I haven't seen the movies.
Lisa Bodnar:
Groot has super human strength. Well, he's not even a human, but he has super strength. That's kind of me. Don't you think? I have super strength. I can't open a jar often, but my strength is pretty.
Matt Fox:
I'm sorry. You can't open the jar, but you have super human... I can't even say the word. Superhuman strength is like the most boring of all superpowers.
Lisa Bodnar:
If you were a Guardian of the Galaxy, then super strength could be really valuable. Don't you think?
Matt Fox:
I am not a Guardian of the Galaxy. I'm barely a guardian of my own home. I am possibly a guardian of my own computer, maybe at best.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. Hold on.
Matt Fox:
So I don't know.
Lisa Bodnar:
I decided that it wasn't Groot that I like.
Matt Fox:
Okay. Who do you like one?
Lisa Bodnar:
It is this one.
Matt Fox:
This one?
Lisa Bodnar:
Can you see that?
Matt Fox:
Hold on.
Lisa Bodnar:
Can you see?
Matt Fox:
Hold on.
Lisa Bodnar:
That guy.
Matt Fox:
What are you pointing to?
Lisa Bodnar:
The raccoon guy. Who's that?
Matt Fox:
Oh, yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
Who's that?
Matt Fox:
I think his name is Ralph the Raccoon.
Lisa Bodnar:
No.
Matt Fox:
Randy Geno.
Lisa Bodnar:
Come on. How do I find out who this is?
Matt Fox:
Bill.
Lisa Bodnar:
Guardians of the Galaxy raccoon. Rocket.
Matt Fox:
Rocket. Yeah. No.
Lisa Bodnar:
I want to be Rocket.
Matt Fox:
Rocket has the power to knock over trash cans and rip open trash bags, I believe. You're going to look up Raccoons.
Lisa Bodnar:
No, I just like this guy. I thought he was like a little bit like spunky and kind of gritty, but sweet. That's me. Rocky Raccoon. Notable aliases. He has other ones.
Matt Fox:
I think that's it.
Lisa Bodnar:
Rocket. It's not Rockets.
Matt Fox:
Do you have an alias?
Lisa Bodnar:
No. Do you?
Matt Fox:
Do you have a fake Instagram account?
Lisa Bodnar:
A Finsta?
Matt Fox:
Do you have a Finsta?
Lisa Bodnar:
No.
Matt Fox:
No. You don't have like a fake Twitter account that you used to troll people?
Lisa Bodnar:
I have a fake Twitter.
Matt Fox:
You do?
Lisa Bodnar:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Matt Fox:
What do you do with it?
Lisa Bodnar:
I don't really use it for anything. I used-
Matt Fox:
That you'll tell us about.
Lisa Bodnar:
I used to use it. Now-
Matt Fox:
What did you use it for?
Lisa Bodnar:
Why am I going to tell you that? What's the point of having a fake Twitter if I'm going to go on my podcast and tell everyone what I did with it?
Matt Fox:
Because you don't use it anymore.
Lisa Bodnar:
That's true. Do you have one?
Matt Fox:
No, I don't.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay.
Matt Fox:
I'm now considering getting one now that you have one.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. Well, do you have a Finsta?
Matt Fox:
No, I don't. I'm not even positive. Oh, no, I do. I have a regular.
Lisa Bodnar:
You're on Instagram. You are.
Matt Fox:
I am.
Lisa Bodnar:
You are.
Matt Fox:
But I don't post anything on there.
Lisa Bodnar:
I know.
Matt Fox:
I'm a lurker.
Lisa Bodnar:
You're one of the lurkers.
Matt Fox:
Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
I just found out that Neil Perkins is a lurker. I don't know who-
Matt Fox:
Neil Perkins is a lurker?
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes.
Matt Fox:
All right, Neil Perkins, if you're listening, we are now besties. We are now Instagram besties.
Lisa Bodnar:
You've got 15 minutes to prove yourself here as a worthy update guest. What's your update, Matt?
Matt Fox:
Well, so I don't know what you mean by update. I don't know what I was supposed to do for an update, but I was thinking a lot. I have been thinking a lot about the conversation that you and I had previously about kindness.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay.
Matt Fox:
Which as you know, is something that I very much am focused on. And I think I talked to you about this. I was writing a talk in which I was trying to talk about the things that have gone on over the course of the pandemic. Where I think, a lot of people have been incredible about using their social media platforms and their voice to help people through the course of the pandemic. And then there have been some people who have, I think, used their platforms to push people out of the conversation because they have authority that others don't necessarily have.
So the question that becomes, is calling that out compatible with also calling for a kinder academia? Can we exist in a world in which we are very much focused on caring for those who are around us, but also fighting for those who are being treated poorly by the systems that we are part of and potentially are upholding. And I think, those things are intention because I do want to treat people with kindness, but I don't want to treat people with kindness at the expense of letting other people be treated poorly. If somebody puts out a publication that has problems, it is part of the job of science to critique that work.
But the problem, the challenge becomes, when you do that in scientific discourse, that is not on social media, there's an expectation of how you interact with somebody. I'm not saying it's always done well, but there's an expectation of-
Lisa Bodnar:
In person.
Matt Fox:
... how you do that. Yeah. The way you would speak to somebody, whereas when you do it on social media and I'm not arguing that we shouldn't be critiquing work on social media, but inevitably is to lead to the [inaudible 00:13:58], right? And there's no way to prevent your honest and genuine critique that is not at the person, but is just of the work. Because again, if bad science even through good intention leads to bad policy that is harmful to people.
And so we should be talking about that, but it seems to me in social media that will inevitably lead even with the best of intentions to people ganging up on, or getting personal about a person who's doing the work. And I struggle very much with whether social media is really a good forum to critique. I find that I learn a lot by reading critiques on social media. So I don't want to say, we shouldn't be doing it on the other hand, you can read the critique and you can think, "Oh, the critique is actually pretty spot on." And then you read the comments to the critique and you think, "Oh, this is descending into a world I don't want to be part of." And you can then feel terrible for the person who has been critiqued and that never would've happened at a scientific meeting, right?
Lisa Bodnar:
That's right. Never.
Matt Fox:
So I really struggle with what the right thing to do is around critiquing, bad sciences isn't the right word because all sciences is flawed and we should be able to talk about that. But in a lot of ways, it's very similar to how I feel about pre-prints, right? Pre-prints are a fantastic idea yet, in the time of COVID when there is this intense scrutiny of the pre-print literature, it can also do a fair bit of harm. I don't know what the right thing to do is. But it's something that keeps me up at night.
Lisa Bodnar:
So one of the struggles that I have with this is that it feels as if it's pushing really solid scientists and thoughtful people out of social media, it's pushing them out, having them feel less confident about their own opinions and their own science when they don't always with the mainstream view or the loudest view. Maybe that's what I should have said.
Matt Fox:
Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
And that's so sad. That's so, so sad that this forum that could be used for so much good is actually harming people's mental health.
Matt Fox:
I could not agree with you more. I have loved being part of the epi Twitter community. I have learned so much. And I feel like I've met so many people who have been generous with their time, with their willingness to share their personal selves to let me know about things that I was not aware of. And I think it's made me a better colleague and a better professor. On the other hand, like there are definitely times when I just have to put it down because it's upsetting me. And I don't know how to get the good without the bad. Maybe what we need is a service that curates my Twitter feed for me, that somebody who goes through and says, "No, Matt's going to be upset by this. We got to take this out. But he's going to really like this." We need to start a business. This is going to be my new job. I am going to start a service where I will read through all the people you follow on Twitter, and then I will only let through the comments that I think will make you happy.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. So it's like happy Twitter. That's going to be your name?
Matt Fox:
It's going to be my-
Lisa Bodnar:
Happy Twitter?
Matt Fox:
Happy Twitter.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. Happy tweets.
Matt Fox:
Happy tweets.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yep. I like that.
Matt Fox:
That's my new gig.
Lisa Bodnar:
And I worry about the impact of this type of discourse, right? Not just typical Twitter stuff, but this type of discourse on people who are early career. Certainly there's kind of it runs the gamut. It's really being guarded about what they say, and then really revealing, and even being incredibly critical of the field or people in our field. And I worry, we've never had this experiment before and I don't know how... I've had some junior people come to me and say like, "What do you think about interacting? And should I have these strong opinions?" And I'm like, "I don't know." Like, I really don't know.
Matt Fox:
It's a really tough one. My personality is not to probably express really strong opinions and therefore what I'm going to put on Twitter is going to be very different. But there are other people who I read who feel very strongly about things that I can understand why they feel like they want to talk about this so that other people can hear and say whether or not they're experiencing the same thing and build community that way. And I don't want to stop people from doing that. There are certainly times when I read things on Twitter that I think like, "I don't know if that was a good thing to have said from a professional standpoint," but I'm not sure people should also be curating their Twitter feed just because they have a professional life.
They have a personal life too, and they have personal experiences within their professional life that they want to talk about. And how do we get better if nobody's going to talk about them? I think there's value in what people are sharing personally, on Twitter too. So I wouldn't want to see people completely abandon that either, or to separate them out into a personal and professional account or things like that. We are living in a very different world and we didn't grow up "in this world." So I think we're less comfortable with it. And I think it's probably us who needs to adapt more than it is early career professionals who are going to be around and set the norms for the field going forward. I think it's probably us who has to change. Are you the kind of person who is going to work as a professor in some capacity until the day you die basically, or shortly before? Are you like 65 and I'm out of here?
Lisa Bodnar:
Part of the reason that I started this show is because I was getting bored. And I think that boredom could be likely in 10 more years, and that I might be looking for something else to do or something to supplement research life. Or maybe I'm just going to be a full-time podcaster, Matt, maybe this is just my life. And I'm going to have like three shows and like a team to edit all this stuff. So I don't have to do it. I don't know. That could be me.
Matt Fox:
The only way to be a professional podcaster is by getting sponsors. So do you want me to do the advertisement for zip recruiter now?
Lisa Bodnar:
Parachute sheets.
Matt Fox:
Parachute sheets, ZipRecruiter, Stitch Fix, what else?
Lisa Bodnar:
SimpliSafe.
Matt Fox:
SimpliSafe. There we go. The cash app.
Lisa Bodnar:
The cash app.
What about you? By the way, PS, I need some sponsors and I'm going to find a way to make that happen. In fact, the conversation that I had today with Neil Perkins, he was like, "Lisa, you need to get a grant, small grant by someone who wants science and like the STEM fields to be more inclusive."
Matt Fox:
Okay. So I have had this thought many moons ago that I have never followed up on, but I think what we need is a podcast network.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes.
Matt Fox:
Like Pod Save America, where we take all of these podcasts we're doing together. And then we have some kind of a business that markets them and does the going out and finding sponsorship. But if you pull them all together, then you can use whichever one becomes the first one to be a hit. Then you can use that to advertise the others.
Lisa Bodnar:
I love this.
Matt Fox:
Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
Who would do that? Who would do that for us? Like how do we do that? A media company? How do you start that? That seems like too much. Anyway, I think that, that's a really good idea. And I think that SCR should do it.
Matt Fox:
All right. Put it out there.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. Hey, Matt, thanks for your update.
Matt Fox:
Hey, Lisa, thanks for having me on to give an update.
Lisa Bodnar:
You're welcome. Go sleep on those cheese covered sheets tonight.
Matt Fox:
This episode brought to you by Neil Perkins.
Lisa Bodnar:
And Velveeta.
Matt Fox:
And Velveeta sheets.
Mya Roberson:
Hi, Lisa.
Lisa Bodnar:
What is up?
Mya Roberson:
I have a whole PhD now.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. So how did the rest of your dissertation go? And tell me about your defense.
Mya Roberson:
I actually really enjoyed my dissertation process, oddly enough. And I had a truly wonderful committee and I've been reflecting on that a lot about how I really feel like my committee treated me like a collaborator instead of like, quite honestly, I'd heard horror stories about committees really doubling down and reinforcing academic hierarchies.
Lisa Bodnar:
Really?
Mya Roberson:
Yeah. A number of my peers, they couldn't wait to finish their dissertations fast enough. And for me, it's kind of bittersweet. It's like, "Oh, I actually really enjoyed working with this constellation of five people that I feel like made me a better scholar." And my committee was like, "You know what? You've put in the hard work. Here's what we need to do I think to get these papers publishable." But they were never my adversary and I never dreaded looking at their feedback or anything like that.
I didn't have to go cry in a corner or anything. I was like, "You know what? Like this is actually very helpful and useful." Because not everybody's experience is like that. And so I am so glad that even though like everything around me was a dumpster fire. I was like, you know what? Like working on my dissertation is like genuinely brings me joy. And so I did my three manuscripts and turned them into my committee in April and defended in may. And it was a really wonderful experience because I feel like I went to act my roots of storytelling.
Lisa Bodnar:
Tell me about that. What does that mean?
Mya Roberson:
I had picked this up when I was preparing for my job talks that I didn't want to do like standard intro methods, results, conclusion, types of presentations. I really have taken this away from health policy research scholars, honestly, to talk about what is the issue? Why does it matter? What do we know? What do we not know? And what did I find? And what does this mean for folks?
Lisa Bodnar:
I love that outline. I'm going to write that down.
Mya Roberson:
Yeah. And so that's how I structured my job talks, that's how I structured my dissertation defense because to me that was the most important framing. And I think I was able to communicate to a wider audience. I had, I think over a hundred people turned into my dissertation defense.
Lisa Bodnar:
No way.
Mya Roberson:
Yeah, it was like my high school biology teacher came.
Lisa Bodnar:
That's cool.
Mya Roberson:
Yeah. Mr. Hobbs, he was one of the people who first got me interested in science in general.
Lisa Bodnar:
What a lovely relationship you must have.
Mya Roberson:
Randomly shot him an email in May. And I was like, "Oh, by the way, I'm getting a..." He knew I was in grad school. I was like, "Oh, by the way, I'm defending my PhD dissertation week. I know it's in the middle of the school day. I just wanted to send you the Zoom link." And he showed up 10 minutes early and tuned in. And some of my mentors from Brown, some of my family members came. And so like for that reason too, it was important for me to structure my defense in that way, instead of the standard, like super detailed. And fortunately, it was well received by my committee because that was as nice as it was to have everyone there. Those are the ultimate people who mattered, but it was a really a joyful experience. And then I got an ice cream cake afterwards, which was-
Lisa Bodnar:
Hell yeah. What kind was it?
Mya Roberson:
So I got a custom cake made for my favorite place.
Lisa Bodnar:
Are you so fancy?
Mya Roberson:
Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay.
Mya Roberson:
So I'm obsessed with these ice cream cakes. I got one after I had gotten the job at Vanderbilt.
Lisa Bodnar:
Which we need to discuss.
Mya Roberson:
We need to discuss.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
Mya Roberson:
I was like, "You know what? I really want an ice cream cake after that." And before it was like official and everything. So it was just like, just me and my husband eating this giant ice cream cake. And I didn't get anything put on it because like, I technically didn't sign anything, but I was like, "You know what? I got a job. I'm getting an ice cream cake." And it was so good. And then, so I decided that for my defense, I wanted to... I'm sorry.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, hello.
Mya Roberson:
I got a pandemic dog too.
Lisa Bodnar:
I didn't know that you have dogs at home.
Mya Roberson:
I do have dogs at home.
Lisa Bodnar:
Let me see.
Mya Roberson:
Hey, come here, Malcolm. I got a pandemic dog.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, you were one of those people.
Mya Roberson:
I was one of those people. I had a dog already that I got five days after I moved to North Carolina and then I got another one.
Lisa Bodnar:
Right. Wow. Okay. Where's your husband? He should just pop in.
Mya Roberson:
[inaudible 00:28:18] say hello.
Lisa Bodnar:
Give him one of your earbuds. What's his name?
Mya Roberson:
His name is Wendell.
Wendell:
Hello.
Lisa Bodnar:
Hi, Wendell. Hey.
Wendell:
Hi.
Lisa Bodnar:
You have a pretty awesome wife.
Wendell:
Thank you. I know. That's why I picked her.
Lisa Bodnar:
Were you so excited when she defended?
Wendell:
Yeah. I was actually not there. I was out in the field when that happened.
Lisa Bodnar:
What does out in the field mean?
Wendell:
Out in the woods, sleeping on the ground. I'm in the army.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay.
Mya Roberson:
Immediately after my dissertation, I just like watched the Law & Order: SVU by myself and waited for him to come home. And then we got an ice cream cake. But this is my little family. The dogs are in the background. Okay. So that's Malcolm on the ground.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, okay.
Mya Roberson:
And then that's Tommy. He's the pandemic dog.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. Was he a puppy?
Mya Roberson:
It was interesting because at the shelter that I went to, I got them both from the same one and because of COVID, the shelter was doing by appointment only. And so I had a list of three dogs that I wanted to see that were listed on their website. It was the Alamance County shelter, since you went to USC, I'm sure you know that-
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. Alamance.
Mya Roberson:
... Alamance is right next to Orange. And in the hour it took me to drive there, all three of the dogs that I wanted were adopted. And so they just started bringing out random dogs and were like, "Well, you drove all the way up here." And they brought out this one and he was everything I didn't want at first because I didn't want a male dog. I didn't want a small dog and I didn't want a puppy. And he was all three of those, but I had Malcolm with me and they got along so well, like I had to drag Malcolm around to I think like different visits.
And he was just not vibing with any of the female dogs that they set him up with. He wasn't aggressive, but he like physically would turn his back on these other dogs. And I was like, "You know what, maybe it's not meant to be." And then they brought out this little one that I didn't even ask for. And they just got along so well and I drove away without him. And I was like, "I don't know if I can handle a puppy. There's so much work."
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes.
Mya Roberson:
I was like, I wanted an adult dog, but I couldn't stop thinking about him. So two days later I sent them an email, like 4:00 AM and I was like, "I need to adopt that dog."
Lisa Bodnar:
That's so cute.
Mya Roberson:
And I went back and got him and they're best buds. And it's been really great though, he has very bad separation anxiety in his own Prozac.
Lisa Bodnar:
Who isn't?
Mya Roberson:
But that was a very big derailment.
Lisa Bodnar:
It's okay.
Mya Roberson:
Yes. I'm going to shut the door now to make it a little bit quieter.
Lisa Bodnar:
Sure. Do that. Tell me about looking for a job because you and I had communicated a little bit about some of the stresses related to that. So whatever you want to share and the job, so exciting.
Mya Roberson:
It sucked. Looking for-
Lisa Bodnar:
So you were doing this during what? In the last, like six months or nine months of your dissertation?
Mya Roberson:
Yeah. So I think we talked, I believe in October, like early fall or so. You and I had recorded that episode and I was in the thick of it then. I was scouring every relevant site for postings. I think the hardest part was like the existential like, "What do I want to do with myself right now?" Especially getting an epidemiology PhD in the middle of a pandemic feeling like how can I be most useful? And also thinking that I wanted to stay in academia and seeing university after university having hiring freezes and wage freezes and all sorts of things that made it, the chance seem pretty nil that I would get a job that I think was a good fit for me. In my mind, like my idea scenario, I wanted to stay in the south. It's where I feel like I've built community.
It's where I feel like my work can have the most impact Southern universities by and large, like also largely had hiring freezes. So I was truthfully pretty flexible in where I applied geographically. I applied to faculty positions. I applied to postdocs because I didn't know what the world was going to hold. And I was originally going to apply for postdocs only, but then like somewhat late in the job application season, like probably late winter, like November, December, some postings had started coming out that were health equity focused in schools of public health and in med schools. And I was like, "Oh, this is what I do. Let me put some applications in and see what happens." So yeah, I had applied for a mix of postdoc and faculty and some government postdocs as well and did a bunch of interviews and Zoom interviews were also terrible.
I just like sitting there for eight hours. I genuinely enjoyed the people at the places where I interviewed, but after just sitting on Zoom for at long and thinking about what it would've been like, had it been in person like you at least have the breaks in between, walking to offices, and changing location and standing up. And for most of these, it was just like back to back to back 30 minute meetings. And I had to excuse myself to go to bathroom and get a sip for water because it was so jam-packed. And by the end of it, by the end of these interview days, my makeup would be like melting off my face. And then I heard through the grape vine about this position opening at Vanderbilt and was asked if I had job materials ready. And honestly, my first reaction, I'm kind of embarrassed by it now. It's like, "Oh, I'm not ready. I'm going to do a postdoc."
Lisa Bodnar:
I would've had the same reaction for sure.
Mya Roberson:
I'm really glad this person encouraged me that they were like, "Mya, I know you have your job materials ready, just submit them and see what happens."
Lisa Bodnar:
So what was the job Mya?
Mya Roberson:
Yeah. So I am going to be an assistant professor of health policy at Vanderbilt University School of Medicine on the tenure track. And so it is truly a dream. And I feel like is exactly what HPRS prepared me to do so well.
Lisa Bodnar:
Dude, you must have impressed the hell out of them.
Mya Roberson:
They're such a great department. I am so, so excited. And one of the things that I had left out is that I had applied to a mix of epidemiology health policy and cancer center jobs, and the substantive fit just felt so great for me thinking about how I will be teaching. I was hired in part to teach a specific course to medical students called foundations and health equity. And that is exactly my jam. And I am so excited about that. And going back to a previous comment, I had made about how I didn't get like the right fit or feel for some of the other places. And when I thought, and I know it's such a minor point about like the tenure track hustle or whatever.
But when I thought about like what I wanted to teach, like what I wanted to give students, I had this realization like pretty late my application cycle, where I was like, "I don't want to teach epidemiology. I don't want to teach epi methods. I can teach epi methods. I'm perfectly qualified to, but like that is not the contribution that I want to make." And so when this opportunity came available in a great department, they had just launched this health equity certificate program for medical students and we're looking for someone to take over the first course in that sequence on foundations in health equity, it was like, "This is what I was supposed to be doing with my teaching."
And in an environment where I feel like my research could really thrive. And so it's interesting making a shift out of epidemiology into my health policy department, but I'm really looking forward to applying those skills and that causal inference and everything that I learned here at UNC to have policy changes, which is what I had realized I really wanted to be doing.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'm so happy for you. Congratulations. You totally deserve this.
Mya Roberson:
Thank you, Lisa.
Lisa Bodnar:
Some people certainly make that transition from getting the PhD to getting on a tenure track position. Can you tell me how that feels now?
Mya Roberson:
I realized like I've gotten $150,000 in grants as a graduate student. Like, let me just remember what I am capable of. That is not an insignificant amount of money as a PhD student and had had some solid publications. I was like, you know what? I was like, I have talked myself out of being ready and I'm not disillusioned. Like I know the tenure track process will be very, very different, but I felt like I had the right pieces. Like once I reminded myself, like I know these things and like fortunately have had good mentors who have shown me how to play the game or what have you. I was like, "You know what, I can do this." On the other hand, it's been like, "Wow, I just finished my own dissertation and I'm going to have to serve on masters and dissertation committees myself."
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. Are they going to give you some protected time to get your own stuff going?
Mya Roberson:
Yeah. So I am 100% covered for my first three years.
Lisa Bodnar:
Great.
Mya Roberson:
And I will be teaching in the spring, this foundations and health equity course, but because it is a med student class, it's an intensive, so it's not even a full semester long course, or like what we normally think of in grad classes. It is quite honestly a dream teaching load in that regard and have time, that first three years, especially to get my research off the ground, which is another part of the reason, like why this felt like the right position too, for skipping a postdoc that I had that space and time to get myself off the ground in that way. And one of the things too, that was, I think really helpful and impactful in terms of thinking about like, "Is this the right place for me?" For like jumping right in on the tenure track was how many senior faculty, both inside of the department and outside of the department in the school of medicine either attended my interview day or series of days.
And or after I had accepted, followed up with me and were like, "Hey Maya, I would really like to schedule a time to talk with you to talk with about how we can best support you when you come to Vanderbilt." And that meant a lot. I felt that I wasn't going to go and flounder, that like I can go in September and hit the ground running and people have my back so that like the protected time, and I feel like the people support that I've already felt is going to be so valuable transitioning into this new phase.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'm just curious as a PhD student because talking to other PhD students about like, would you like to be on the show? Some of them feel like it is more of a risk, right?
Mya Roberson:
Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
Than waiting until they're more established. Can you talk a little bit about that? About your decision to do it and then maybe how it played out?
Mya Roberson:
Yeah, absolutely. I decided to do it after that, you were a very persuasive person. And with that very sweet email that you had sent me about how Penny Gordon-Larsen had recommended that you talked to me, I was like, "Oh, the fact that she was the one who asked, I should probably do this." And I had enjoyed the episodes that you had put together so far at that point. And in terms of how it's impacted my real life. It's funny recording that while being on the job market, I was a little bit concerned like, "Oh my goodness, these people are going to hear about how I ate five pounds of gummy bears, and how I fell on my face. And they're going to think that I'm the weirdest person ever."
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. How I love guy theory, how I would be on supermarket sweep if I had to chance.
Mya Roberson:
Yeah. I was like, quite honestly, like what if they think that I'm like the weirdest colleague at first. And that's not what happened at all. The podcast episode was mentioned in every single interview that I did.
Lisa Bodnar:
Are you kidding me?
Mya Roberson:
Someone had listened. Multiple people usually had listened and it was a really nice point of conversation. And so they would talk to me about HPRS or how I communicated about my work. And that was really nice to have that, I guess kind of like, it was almost like a comforting starting point or comforting way to talk about myself. And it would get us talking about the broader aspects of science communication. And so I think it was a tremendously impactful way for me to get my work out there, get myself out there in such an approachable way, because I am so much more than my peer review publications.
And I felt like that podcast episode in all of its glory, with me talking about my gummy bear habit and falling was able to showcase that. And I've gotten quite a few DMs as well over the months about how certain aspects of the episode were relatable. I have talked to a couple of prospective epi students about how they heard the podcast episode and wanted to talk with me about my integration of epidemiology and health policy.
Lisa Bodnar:
Cool.
Mya Roberson:
Which is a conversation that I love to have. So it has had such wonderful implications for my life. And I think quite truthfully for me, it came in exactly the right time as well. And quite honestly, it was a good exercise in communicating my message concisely as well. So there was that bonus perk too. So I really hoped to continue to see PhD students and especially PhD students on the job market on the podcast because it has been truthfully quite amazing for me.
Lisa Bodnar:
I just can't even wait to see where you go, Mya. You go have an incredible vacation.
Mya Roberson:
Thank you.
Lisa Bodnar:
An incredibly well earned vacation. Do all the celebrating.
Mya Roberson:
I absolutely will. It was so good to see you, Lisa.
Lisa Bodnar:
It was so good to see you too.
