Shiny Epi People
Shiny Epi People
Whitney Robinson, PhD on apologizing, male mentorship, and bad 90s fashion
Today you hear from Whitney Robinson, PhD, social epidemiologist and all around brilliant, thoughtful, vulnerable woman. She is so well known in the public health community after her positions as a Robert Wood Johnson Health and Societies Scholar, assistant and then associate professor at UNC in the epidemiology department, and now as faculty epidemiologist in the Division of Women’s Community and Population Health in the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology at Duke University School of Medicine. Whitney tells me about her recent transition to Duke, what she learned about changing jobs midcareer, how her personality matches her new job description, how male mentors shaped her training, and what makes for a good apology. Living in the pocket of a kangaroo, how she'd blow 5 grand, bad 90s fashion and more come up in our conversation. Enjoy!
Whitney Robinson:
I was excited for this because I only do therapy every other week, so this is like a fill-in. I will not be paying you though. No copay.
Lisa Bodnar:
Hello, Shiny Epi People. Welcome back to the show. I'm Lisa Bodnar. I'm so happy you're here. And I know I say that every time, but I really mean it every time. Please try to rate and review the show if your podcast app allows it. Also, if you can, you can please download the show and then you can delete it right afterwards. But all of these things help me in terms of having the show be put in front of more people. You can join me over on Twitter and Instagram @shinyepipeople. I hate Facebook, You won't find me there. I do post photos of guests and I make announcements on Instagram and Twitter about what's coming up. So if you're tolerant of social media, I think you'll enjoy the account. So please come on over. I am still selling Shiny Epi People vinyl, hexagon stickers. You can email me if you'd like one, shinyepipeople@gmail.com.
You can also just email me to say hello. I've gotten a couple of these emails in the past two weeks, and it's really been nice to meet some listeners, so thanks. If you would like to financially support the show, even for as little as a dollar a month, you can go to my Patreon page, which is at patreon.com/shinyepipeople. Today, my conversation with Whitney Robinson. Whitney is a social epidemiologist, but I think fair to say that she is brilliant about so many other areas of epidemiology. Whitney got her Bachelor's degree from Harvard and her Master's and PhD from UNC Chapel Hill in Epidemiology. Whitney then went on to be a Robert Wood Johnson Health and Society scholar. For the past 10 years, she has been an assistant and then associate professor at the University of North Carolina Gillings School of Global Public Health in the Epidemiology Department.
As of September of 2021, Whitney began a new position as a faculty epidemiologist in the division of women's community and population health in the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology at Duke University School of Medicine. Whitney was a co-host along with Sarah Birken of the popular podcast, AcaDames. Whitney and I recorded an episode of AcaDames together last year, both of us in our closets. And although AcaDames isn't putting out new episodes, all of their prior episodes are still available. And I urge you to go back and listen. You will learn a lot just as I did. Whitney is so well known in the epidemiology community, the broader public health community, the Twitter community, and beyond. I think you'll learn something from her today. You will feel feelings and you will laugh. And that's really what the show is all about. I hope you enjoy this chat.
Whitney Robinson:
Hi, welcome to my closet.
Lisa Bodnar:
No, Whitney. I've been in your closet and you've been in mine.
Whitney Robinson:
This is so embarrassing.
Lisa Bodnar:
If this isn't intimacy, I don't know what is. So Whitney, you and I have known each a long time.
Whitney Robinson:
Oh, my goodness.
Lisa Bodnar:
I mean, I was... Was I in my PhD program when we met?
Whitney Robinson:
I started my PhD program in 2001.
Lisa Bodnar:
Right. So we only overlapped a year.
Whitney Robinson:
Must've been a big year.
Lisa Bodnar:
It was a big year. I remember that year. Yeah, and I wasn't even in your department, so.
Whitney Robinson:
I worked with a lot of nutrition people.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, right. Right. That's how we sort of connected. So we have so many things to talk about.
Whitney Robinson:
I know. I'm sorry.
Lisa Bodnar:
No, this could be like a five-parter.
Whitney Robinson:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
So let's take it. You're still sending me ideas like yesterday.
Whitney Robinson:
I know.
Lisa Bodnar:
Look, we could also talk about this or this. It was so good.
Whitney Robinson:
I have a problem.
Lisa Bodnar:
No, you don't. You just have so many interesting things to talk about. So Whitney, you recently told me that you did this assessment. I had never heard of it, called the Clifton's Strengths. I went online. It is not free.
Whitney Robinson:
It is not free.
Lisa Bodnar:
I was like, "God, damn. I can't even do this myself". So you were like, "I wonder what you are". And I was like, "I am not going to pay whatever amount it was to do it". So.
Whitney Robinson:
Okay. I guess self knowledge does have a price, Lisa. Maybe your therapist could roll it in.
Lisa Bodnar:
So tell me what you learned about yourself with this assessment that you did.
Whitney Robinson:
So I love personality assessments and they rank you on kind of five value strengths, ways of seeing the world. And your top five is a unique combination where they give you a profile based on that. So my top five, everybody ready?
Lisa Bodnar:
I'm ready.
Whitney Robinson:
Individualization, strategic, learner, promoter and empathy. And so the strategic and learner are kind of, you love ideas, you love to like cut through ideas and find out the important things. You love learning new themes. That all fits. I'm an academic, it fits.
Lisa Bodnar:
Sure.
Whitney Robinson:
And then individualization and promoter and empathy are all kind of the people domain like empathy and promoter. You love helping others reach their goals. And the top one is individualization. And that's the one-
Lisa Bodnar:
What does that mean?
Whitney Robinson:
Yes. Because what does that mean, Lisa? That's a good question.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. I don't know what that means.
Whitney Robinson:
So I read it and it's like, you really love trying to figure out the unique contributions people have and can make to a project. And that is so me and it's something I even take for granted, but to realize other people don't have that, immediately when I meet somebody, I'm starting to turn the connections about like, oh, this person could do this or this person should know this or they can contribute to this in this way. And I love it for all the people I'm around. And the flip side of it is that they say that you have to realize other people don't have this. So you will often feel like why can't people around me see that I would be really good at this or that I have this strength? And so that was actually a helpful reframe, that it's something that naturally comes to me.
As soon as I meet somebody, I'm plugging them in to, oh, you could be really good at this or that, but that doesn't come naturally to everybody. And so I think one thing is that in the overall synthesis of what this combination means, one of the things they said was, you really are able to see the humanity behind data, which was so specific that I laughed about it. That combination of the learning and the decision making and the individualization and the promoter and the empathy, that is something that's a really big deal to me and part of why I love being an epidemiologist. When I see data and patterns, I really think about the people under it. Another thing that it said was, you love learning new things, but there's another domain called executing. There's all these things that are an executing domain. And those are my lowest ones. So there's a list of 36, getting things done once.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. Are they planning meetings?
Whitney Robinson:
Yeah. Yeah. Apparently, I'm not good at that. This is going to come as a shock. So self work is going to shock your friends.
Lisa Bodnar:
You need someone to do that part for you.
Whitney Robinson:
I do. I have a project manager and apparently that's self-knowledge. So anyway, the whole thing about seeing people behind the data definitely resonates and also, this kind of ties into thinking about job satisfaction, because I love ideas. I love big blocks of time to really get into an idea. And I also love the relational aspects of helping other people plan their projects and figure out who would be a good collaborator for you and what do you need to get things done. And I just do a lot of that, even though it wasn't my job, because I really like that part.
Lisa Bodnar:
How does it play out in your new job kind of versus your older position?
Whitney Robinson:
When I was talking to the chair about this position and negotiating for it... A good thing about starting something new at mid-career is hopefully, you know yourself better and you have a little bit of leverage for crafting the job. And so I said, "I want to be 75% just research time". I just really want to get deeper into my research. And in my new job, in medical school, there's no teaching and the service requirements that a lot of times come along with the student part of the job aren't really there for me. And so I said, I want 20% of my time to just be consulting with other people on their research, the fellows and the other faculty who are clinicians who are so smart, but who are really busy and who don't have PhDs in Epidemiology. In the particular division, I am, it's community and population health. And so I'm like, "I would just really love to talk with them and help build infrastructure for them and facilitate them doing research that's important to them".
I think it's going to be a really good fit. And for a person like me who likes to dig deep and just have big blocks of time to think about things, I think this job might suit me better because it's really just research, consulting with people about research.
Lisa Bodnar:
So in moving institutions, you did this mid-career. Could you talk a little bit about the pros and cons?
Whitney Robinson:
Yeah. I think it's super fascinating. And also the old job was in a school of public health and the new job is in a school of medicine. And so I know people who've worked in school of medicine who say it's really hard to be an epidemiologist there. People just think you're there to do coding and run their stuff and it's not very fulfilling. And so I could say coming in mid-career, I was very clear. I'm like, "I cannot run code for you. I am rusty as shit".
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. I can't do anything anymore.
Whitney Robinson:
Yeah. Good luck.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. I know. I'm like, "How do I pull in the data set? Okay. Try that".
Whitney Robinson:
Semi colon here. So I mean, they kind of know what they're getting. I am not the person who's going to run your code, but I am the person who can help do your study designs and run grants and think about what you need and the connections. So I think in some ways you could just be clear about what you do and what you don't do, and what you like and what you don't like. And then also the thing of crafting the job, being like, I want this much FTE to be this and this much FTE to be this. And I think that's easier to do mid-career because you have a better idea of how the systems function. And so I think that is a little bit different.
I think another thing is that if you're already in a job and you don't have an urgent need for a new job, it also just gives you more time, which can give you more leverage to kind of negotiate for what you want. I think I have more confidence now to think about resources that I would like, and to be able to ask people for help, but to know how to use the resources, like how can I use my startup package in a smart way? So we'll see.
Lisa Bodnar:
You had mentioned that interestingly, that you had a lot of strong male mentors throughout your career. It was kind of unexpected when you said this to me. I was like, "Really".
Whitney Robinson:
So famously, I was the cohost of a podcast about women in academia. Maybe you've heard of it.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, oh that's right. I do remember.
Whitney Robinson:
You should really listen. I've had some good guests.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. You know what? I was on it. Go back and listen. Go back and listen, everyone. Start from the start.
Whitney Robinson:
Honestly, it's a great episode. I listened to it multiple times after it came out.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, that's nice. No, I don't mean go listen to mine. I mean go listen to the podcast. Go listen to the show.
Whitney Robinson:
Yes. I mean definitely the role of women as collaborators and mentors has been extremely important to me. And I spend a lot of time talking about that publicly, but I've also thought about men who've been really in influential to me because I do think it's so important to give men models of how to be good mentors, especially to women. I think there's a lot of men who feel uncomfortable or unsure about mentoring. And there are some men who are really good at it. And unfortunately, I've been thinking about it a lot because a lot of those men in my life have died in the past few years. I think about those losses and some of those losses are pretty irreplaceable. And I kind of made a list because I like making lists. So I'm going to go-
Lisa Bodnar:
Prepared guest.
Whitney Robinson:
... to my list. Prepared guest. I do think that, especially as a black woman in really white academic spaces, I think a lot of men in power who are usually older, white men feel very confused by me. I think they don't know how to place me.
Lisa Bodnar:
What do you mean place you?
Whitney Robinson:
I think that some men approach women and try to fill them, put them in a niche that's the work version of their family life. This person reminds me of my daughter. This person reminds me of my wife. This person reminds me... Do you feel like some men do that?
Lisa Bodnar:
I haven't had a lot of male mentors, but now that I'm thinking about it, yeah.
Whitney Robinson:
I think that's kind of a way they kind of hook in relationally. I don't know. I feel it's something I notice. And I feel with me, I don't really remind them of their daughter that much. For a lot of them, they can't find a place to slot me in. And so they're kind of just a little kind of stiff and robotic and they just don't know how-
Lisa Bodnar:
You're doing a good robot, by the way right there.
Whitney Robinson:
Thank you.
Lisa Bodnar:
No one can see you, but the robot you just did, it was sort of like a dinosaur/robot.
Whitney Robinson:
I'm going to do some mime later for the podcast.
Lisa Bodnar:
For the podcast.
Whitney Robinson:
It's a crowd stopper.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'll just tell everyone, "You should see Whitney's mime".
Whitney Robinson:
Oh, my gosh.
Lisa Bodnar:
Have her do it at SCR next year.
Whitney Robinson:
So I often feel that way, but it's fine. But there are some men who actually are really good at relating to women and even women of a different race in a very human way. And I know that it sounds shade, but it's not shade. I actually think it's a gift. So the men who I had thought of, I thought about Paul Godley, who was an MD PhD researcher, who's deeply missed, who was in a UNC cancer and who was just busy and smart, but so warm. And he was warm to everybody. And somebody like Bob Millikan, who was also somebody who-
Lisa Bodnar:
I remember Bob Millikan.
Whitney Robinson:
Yeah. He was the first person who I learned about age... I remember being in his cancer Epi seminar learning about age period cohort models. And it ended up doing all this work on this. And it's because of that class session in Bob Millikan's class. And I just felt like he was always somebody who was really interested in ideas and in people's ideas. And even when I was a student and he was a faculty member, I feel like he would talk to me and he was genuinely like, "Okay, what are you about? What are your ideas?" And we're able to really engage on that. Michael O'Malley is somebody else who I didn't know that well, but one of those other people that at his Memorial service, it was packed. And everybody was like... Five different people got up and were like, "He was my best friend". Those kind of people.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, I love that.
Whitney Robinson:
And there's so many more. Somebody like Steve Wing who had a really profound impact on social Epi and who has his legacy and all of his students and community members. So another thing about both Steve and Bob is they did work in black communities. I think they were so successful in it because I think both of them genuinely liked black women as people. And again, that sounds odd, but it is not as common as you would think. But I think people felt like this is a person who sees me and is interested in me as a person. I think about that a lot. I guess it's the idea of a mitch, but very deeply. And so, now I'm crying. I cry all the time [crosstalk 00:16:06].
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, well I'm crying if you're going to cry. I'm not going to cry. Oh, gosh.
Whitney Robinson:
Okay. And I just think that I... I'm raising two boys and so my husband and I think a lot about models of healthy masculinity. And so to think about these men and what they've meant in my life, it's really, a really powerful thing to have those models.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. Obviously, we know that men in academia... I would venture to guess all the men who are listening have very good intentions about wanting to be good mentors to minoritized groups. Based on your experience, is there anything that you could say or recommend?
Whitney Robinson:
For me personally, I felt like when they were talking to me, they really wanted to hear what I had to say. In all those relationships, I felt respected as a person and intellectually and for my ideas. And if I said something interesting, they might ask about it or say, oh, you should think about this. I don't know how to bottle of that. But I think that they all had kind of a humility, even though they were all extremely accomplished. There were people who loved to learn more and who thought they would have something to learn. I was 21 when I started school. The kind of men who were like, "Oh, I might have something to learn from this 21 year old grad student"
Lisa Bodnar:
That's so special. And I'm so happy to hear that you've had that. And I'm sorry that so many of them passed away.
Whitney Robinson:
Yeah. It was a big loss. The crying podcast.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, boy. Okay, let's move on. Can we talk about apologizing? So this is one of your... the things that you added last. And I was like, "Oh my, my gosh. Someone who wants to talk about apologizing". So I have one of the books that you mentioned.
Whitney Robinson:
Isn't it a great book? Have you read it?
Lisa Bodnar:
Dude, I have dogeared many... I have things highlighted in here. I am fascinated with apologies. It's called Why Won't You Apologize, by the way. Tell me why you got interested in this topic.
Whitney Robinson:
I had a friend who told me I was bad at apologizing and I was-
Lisa Bodnar:
Really?
Whitney Robinson:
... I'm [inaudible 00:18:37]. I'm like, "What? You're bad at apologizing". So, instant defensive response. And I am not ashamed of this. It is very human reaction. That was a friend in my 20s. And then I got married and my husband and I early on were having some kind of disagreement. And he's like, "You're really bad at apologizing". And I was like, "What? Why is this coming up again? This is outrageous". But I think what's two people close to you tell you the same thing, you're like... if you're a healthy person, you should be like huh.
Lisa Bodnar:
Many people aren't.
Whitney Robinson:
Many people aren't. Correct. I was like, "Okay, I should look into this".
Lisa Bodnar:
For me personally, I did not have role models who showed me what an apology should look like, in fact. And so I just blamed everyone else for everything.
Whitney Robinson:
It's a strategy.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. I mean, it worked to make me feel better, but it did not help any of the relationships that I had. One of the things I've been working on is holding myself accountable to things and doing that with empathy. Obviously, the importance, when you're holding yourself accountable is apologizing. Actually got the book because I had a couple of instances with romantic relationships where I felt like I deserved an apology for how poorly things ended. And I couldn't get past this. Just like, why won't they apologize? And that's literally the title of this book. And I was like, "This is a book for me". And of course, I read it and I was thinking like, "Oh, Lisa, this applies to you just as much".
Whitney Robinson:
That's how they get you. That's how they trick you.
Lisa Bodnar:
That's right. Right. And the thing that I... that stuck with me and I want to hear what about this book stuck with you, but that the importance of having strong self worth in order to apologize right. To really give a sincere apology, you need to be able to feel that that apology is not going to destroy your view of yourself. Thinking about that has allowed me so much more empathy when I don't get the apology that I am looking for.
Whitney Robinson:
But also it's very vulnerable. It feels threatening.
Lisa Bodnar:
Absolutely. You're admitting that you're wrong to someone that you just hurt and you probably really care about. Yeah. So tell me what you took from this book and kind of why this is so important, why this topic is so important now.
Whitney Robinson:
So one of the things I like is that she uses these vignettes and they could be a little painful. She also has this series with Brene Brown, where they act out some of the vignettes and she's one person and Brene is one person and a mother daughter kind of conversation. They run it a few times with one time, they're both being defensive. And the other time with them... one person really trying to apologize. And it felt very familiar. She also has this thing where she says an apology needs to be sincere. Don't just say you're sorry for something you're not sorry for. She said the key is to, even if you think it's 95% their fault and 5% your fault, apologize for your 5% just wholeheartedly. And don't immediately turn to their 95%. Take ownership for yourself. Take ownership for your 5%. Don't do it with the expectation of getting an apology back for them.
And I think that's about self worth, being accountable for yourself, not trying to control other people, being able to take time and say, "I want to hear you". That's what I've come to realize. The ability to apologize well is so powerful in relationships. And sometimes, I've actually stepped up to now ask somebody for an apology for something that I had been holding onto where I felt wronged by somebody. And I had just been like, well, whatever and held a grudge against the person. And so through therapy... oh, my therapist, I do roll my eyes at her. I'm like, ugh.
I actually email the person and be like, you did this thing. And he didn't even remember it. And I'm not that surprised. He didn't remember it because I think often people do things so callously and they're in their own feelings. And it's not even about you. But he was like, "I'm sorry". He's like, "I don't remember that". But I have done stuff like that to people. And I'm really sorry. And he's like, and also, I hadn't thought about this particular thing and I want to think more about it. It was a really good response. And I feel better. I felt better as soon as I sent that. And then to have that response, I didn't expect the response because she says, you shouldn't go into an apology expecting a certain response, but it's so healing and powerful.
I think a reason I've been thinking about it lately is because in the pandemic, I've thought a lot more about leadership and how important leadership is. So I'm a social Epi person, I believe in structures. And that Americans overrate the role of human agency, but I've come around to the belief but actually individual leaders can make a huge difference because they can have such an influence on systems and institutions, which then shape people's experiences. And so I've really come to believe more that leadership matters and there were so many bad apologies in the pandemic, in the wake of the Black Lives Matter movement and other social movements. I'm like, these people need to read these books about apologizing. And honestly it would make so many things better.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. Oh, so this is good. This is one of the most important things that I took from this. She says part of a true apology is staying deeply about the hurt person's experience, rather than hijacking it with your own emotionality. And I think that this is so hard to do.
Whitney Robinson:
It's very hard.
Lisa Bodnar:
She talks about maybe coming back to your own feelings the next time you talk.
Whitney Robinson:
Separate conversation.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. You don't have to abandon sharing your experience, but it's a different conversation.
Whitney Robinson:
Yeah. And the other person is going to be more able to hear it in a different conversation.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. Oh, this book. Oh, my gosh.
Whitney Robinson:
She is smart.
Lisa Bodnar:
And she's smart.
Whitney Robinson:
You should interview her.
Lisa Bodnar:
Harriet Lerner, if you are listening. Whitney, were you ever part of a fashion trend you wish you weren't part of?
Whitney Robinson:
Lisa, you know how old I am?
Lisa Bodnar:
I know. You know hold old I am.
Whitney Robinson:
You know about the early 90s. It was bad. But I mean, the particular... I feel like there is a period in early adolescent, period adolescents when everybody makes bad fashion choices. I was so awkward. There were suspenders involved. There was a thing where people really into the suspenders and a tie. A vest. There were vests involved. It was such a bad... it was a bad look on almost... Maybe [Alvo 00:25:26] Levine could pull it off. Right. It was an Alvo Levine.
Lisa Bodnar:
Whitney, is there something incredibly common that you have never done?
Whitney Robinson:
I have never seen Titanic. I feel like everybody's seen Titanic.
Lisa Bodnar:
I think everyone has, except you. And what's that about? Do you know not want to see Titanic, or?
Whitney Robinson:
No, I think I should see Titanic. I think I would like it.
Lisa Bodnar:
I think you should.
Whitney Robinson:
I think it should be a tearjerker.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'm sure you've seen all the memes already. So there was room on the door for Jack.
Whitney Robinson:
I don't even get that reference, but I will. I'm going to watch Titanic and then I'm going to get that reference.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. I encourage you to do that because I thought it was really good.
Whitney Robinson:
Yeah. I love a tearjerker.
Lisa Bodnar:
I really liked it.
Whitney Robinson:
You probably haven't picked up on that.
Lisa Bodnar:
No. If you could be a fly on the wall, where would you land?
Whitney Robinson:
In a bed. In a hotel. In the mountains by myself.
Lisa Bodnar:
For what in life do you feel most grateful?
Whitney Robinson:
I honestly wake up most days excited about the day. And I've had periods of my life where I would wake up with a sense of dread, a sense of like, "This again. We're doing this again". And that's a hard way to live. And there's people who live like that for years and years. But I'm in a stage of my life, I'm 41 and I'm really excited about the next decade. Genuinely excited. And that feels good. I don't take that for granted.
Lisa Bodnar:
Would you rather live in the pocket of a kangaroo your whole life or have your own pocket where you need to carry a tiny kangaroo your whole life?
Whitney Robinson:
The second. Yeah, they're so small.
Lisa Bodnar:
I mean, I guess.
Whitney Robinson:
Yeah. I don't think it would be painful, but I don't want to be in the pocket.
Lisa Bodnar:
I know that was so weird.
Whitney Robinson:
I think it's probably mucusy in there. Wouldn't you imagine?
Lisa Bodnar:
Is it?
Whitney Robinson:
I would imagine.
Lisa Bodnar:
I don't know anything about what a pocket of a kangaroo is like.
Whitney Robinson:
I bet it's kind of placenta-ey.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh.
Whitney Robinson:
I mean, I don't think it's dry and spacious.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'm sorry. Hold on. The pouch is hairless on the inside and is lined with sweat glands.
Whitney Robinson:
Oh, Lisa.
Lisa Bodnar:
That is so gross. That release antimicrobial liquid to keep the joey safe from germs. You were totally right, Whitney. It is all moist in there.
Whitney Robinson:
Okay. Moving on.
Lisa Bodnar:
All right. I definitely don't want to live in the pocket of a kangaroo. Okay. Whitney, if you found a scratch off lottery ticket on the street and the win was 50 bucks. What would you spend the $50 on without being responsible?
Whitney Robinson:
I would definitely spend it on myself. So I love that you would think I'd be responsible. I would probably take myself out to lunch or something in the middle of the day. So some outdoor cafe and I would get the most expensive coffee drink and something from the menu and just read a book. I don't know why the money makes me feel like I could take time, but something about the money makes me feel like I'm going to take myself out. I'm going to take a long lunch.
Lisa Bodnar:
All right. Now, same question, except the win was five grand.
Whitney Robinson:
This is harder. Oh Lisa, what would you do? Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
I would go into Tiffany's and I would buy some really nice jewelry.
Whitney Robinson:
Jewelry is a nice thing.
Lisa Bodnar:
And because I don't have a partner to buy me gifts, I recently saw this beautiful necklace. I was with my friend, Jesse Burke. She listens. Shout out Jesse.
Whitney Robinson:
Hi, Jesse.
Lisa Bodnar:
And I was like, you know what? Christmas is coming.
Whitney Robinson:
What month was this? Was this June? You're like, "Christmas is coming".
Lisa Bodnar:
I think it was November. October, November. I was like, "No one's going to buy me a fucking gift". I'm going to have to beg my kids to even write me a card. I want something really nice because I am working my ass off to be a good mother. So I bought myself a really nice necklace.
Whitney Robinson:
I love that. I think I might invest. I might get some custom art. I might get a painter to make some big custom art.
Lisa Bodnar:
That's cool.
Whitney Robinson:
My husband is very into comic art and does commissions. We've gone to Comic-Cons and you can pay for commissions, but the more notable somebody is, the more they charge and the bigger it is, the more they charge. And so they can get really pricey. So I might do some kind of artistic commission.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'm going to say a few things and you're going to tell me yes or no.
Whitney Robinson:
Oh, no.
Lisa Bodnar:
Are you ready?
Whitney Robinson:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. Dark chocolate.
Whitney Robinson:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Jazz.
Whitney Robinson:
No.
Lisa Bodnar:
I wish I liked jazz. It feels like-
Whitney Robinson:
Me too.
Lisa Bodnar:
... you're way more sophisticated if you like jazz.
Whitney Robinson:
Agreed.
Lisa Bodnar:
High heels.
Whitney Robinson:
No. Aspirationally, yes. Practically, no.
Lisa Bodnar:
Having your speaker phone on in public.
Whitney Robinson:
No. Nobody wants that. No, no, no. I am the annoying person. Sometimes even in the library, sometimes people would be on their speakerphones. I am the person who might go over to somebody and be like, "It's a little loud. Could you just take that outside?" And I know it's annoying, but come on.
Lisa Bodnar:
I know. I left a coffee shop the other day because this dude, older dude, I would not say he was ancient, had his phone playing a video, playing... He was watching something. And it was just like, he just had in front of him playing the video. Because whatever, I guess, I was super passive aggressive in that moment, I just kept staring at him. You fucking kidding me. And then I'm staring at all the other people in the cafe. Like, "Are you hearing this?" I'm looking at the people that are working in the coffee shop, "Aren't you going to say something?" No, I was horrible. It was a horrible moment of mine.
Whitney Robinson:
I'm glad you were like, "I need to take care of myself. I need to exit this situation".
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. And I just left. Whitney, thank you.
Whitney Robinson:
Thanks, Lisa. JK Rowling, she is so problematic. I'm torn.
Lisa Bodnar:
I know. She fucking ruined it. She ruined everything.
Whitney Robinson:
I know.
Lisa Bodnar:
Are your kids going to read it?
Whitney Robinson:
These are the hard questions, probably. I would let them read it. And then I would give them... I mean, having a parent who's an academic is terrible because your parent's like "Here, let me give you some context about this".
