Shiny Epi People
Shiny Epi People
Steve Mooney, PhD on being a cis dude in therapy, divorcing, and online dating
Steve Mooney, PhD, is an assistant professor of epidemiology at the University of Washington School of Public Health. He and I have been friends since 2017, and we met because we were both in the very early stages of our divorces. On the show, we talk about how our divorce has changed our feelings about our family structure. He tells me what it's like to be a cis American man deciding to go to therapy (in a culture that tells men to ignore their feelings) and how we try to muddle through the dating apps.
Lisa Bodnar:
Every time you and I talk on the phone since I started the podcast, I often think to myself, "God dammit, I wish I was recording this. This is so good." Because you're so smart and have such interesting insights that... So you better be good. That's all I'm saying.
Steve Mooney:
No pressure.
Lisa Bodnar:
Hey friends, welcome back to Shiny Epi People. I'm Lisa Bodnar, really happy that you're here with me today. Don't forget if you would like to financially support the show, if you're regular, then go to my Patreon at Patreon.com/ShinyEpiPeople. Look for us on Instagram and Twitter @shinyepipeople. I post additional content there, and you don't want to miss it. I'm going to get right into today's episode. It is with my friend, Steve Mooney. Steve got his PhD in epidemiology at Columbia in 2016. He's now an assistant professor of epidemiology at the University of Washington School of Public Health. His research focuses on the built environment, and how it influences pedestrian injury and physical activity. He also has a number of side projects on epidemiologic methods. Steve and I today discuss our divorces, and the emotions that go along with adjusting to a new family structure. We talk about what it is like for him to be a Cis American man in this patriarchy, deciding to go to therapy and learn about his feelings. And we also talk about online dating now, as we are both in our 40s, I hope you enjoy this chat.
Do you have a drink?
Steve Mooney:
I do. I feel like everything you need to know about my pandemic is that I'm drinking boxed wine from a jam jar, But I'm drinking boxed wine because I didn't have any beer in my fridge when I went to go looking for a beer, which... That's the true pandemic part.
Lisa Bodnar:
Cheers.
Steve Mooney:
Cheers.
Lisa Bodnar:
Welcome to the show. I'm so happy you're here.
Steve Mooney:
Delighted. I mean I'm delighted. You can be... Whatever.
Lisa Bodnar:
I am too. Do you remember how we met?
Steve Mooney:
So my recollection of meeting is dancing together in the basement of the Rendezvous in Seattle at SER, I think it was 2017.
Lisa Bodnar:
Although we met and chatted a little bit, it wasn't until maybe at the end of SER that someone was like, "Steve Mooney is getting divorced too." And then I was like, "Hey, we're both divorced people. We should talk about that."
Steve Mooney:
That's exactly right. But I think there's a nuance that I remember distinctly, which is I was following you on Twitter or something and you tweeted something about being stuck on a bus in Oakland. And you were referring to the Oakland that is in Pittsburgh. But I grew up in Oakland, California, and I knew that we were about the same age and it seemed astonishing that our paths had never crossed given this sort of parallel life trend. But I was like, you're from Oakland also? Your tweet just happened to say something about Oakland, and I've lived here all my life. And I'm like…
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes. Right.
Steve Mooney:
Anyway, that was the thing that made me feel like we should really know each other.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. So without that tweet, you'd be a fucking stranger right now.
Steve Mooney:
I'd be a total stranger. It's very fortunate. Twitter has brought so many people together and created so much fucking disaster in our country.
Lisa Bodnar:
I think it was right away Steve, we sort of connected over divorce. And we kind of started immediately talking because our stories were really quite similar. And we were on the same timeline.
Steve Mooney:
That's right. That's right.
Lisa Bodnar:
And we were going through it in parallel lines.
Steve Mooney:
The things that I think connected us around divorce was a combination of resolve that it was the right choice, a choice that we needed to make, and really a kind of deep shame that our lives had come to this point where we were doing this. And I think holding both of those at the same time is not unusual among a person among people who are divorcing, but it's hard. And I think it was really nice to be able to share that with someone where for me, it felt like you understood what I was going through in a way that people who had been divorced for longer, and people who were not divorced, weren't feeling at the same depth at the same time. And that was really nice. So thanks for getting divorced. I really appreciate your divorce.
Lisa Bodnar:
I did it for you.
Steve Mooney:
Thanks.
Lisa Bodnar:
Tell me just a smidge about your marriage, if you're comfortable just saying a few words about that, how long you were married, kind of the context in which this divorce came about.
Steve Mooney:
Yeah, for sure. So I started dating the person I eventually divorced pretty soon after college.
Lisa Bodnar:
The person you married then divorced.
Steve Mooney:
I married then divorced, right. You could argue that the direction was not straight to divorce, but I fell in love with her very quickly. It was about 10 years into our marriage that the crisis that really precipitated the divorce happened.
Lisa Bodnar:
And how old were your kids at the time?
Steve Mooney:
So our kids were, I think three and six when all of this kicked in.
Lisa Bodnar:
So we've talked over the years now about our evolving relationships with each of our spouses. Could you talk a little bit about the emotions that come along with it, I guess?
Steve Mooney:
It really felt like the amount of anger we were each feeling was too much to bear being together. So when we first got divorced, I should maybe be embarrassed about this, but I'm too old to be embarrassed about this. We were playing a Dungeons and Dragons game with our kids.
Lisa Bodnar:
That is nothing to be embarrassed about.
Steve Mooney:
And in the early days of separation, we continued that, we sort of kept it going. It felt like we could be in the same room. We could hold things together for the kids. And then, I think because of each of our healing processes, as they were going along, the anger had to come out. And when it eventually did, we really couldn't be in the same room. It was too painful. It was too hard. It was too... One of the dynamics that had been present even before the separation and divorce was a little bit of walking on eggshells around each other, or at least I perceived it that way, a feeling that I couldn't be my true self without maybe provoking some strong feelings that I was scared to encounter. And I think I can see in retrospect ways I could have handled that better, but I didn't. And I was still definitely feeling that. And at that sort of time of peak anger, it felt so strong that I felt like even being around her for more than a minute or two was really painful.
So at that point, the DnD games stopped. We kept ourselves apart. We really were very separated for sort of only minimal contact and a lot of clipped text exchanges for probably a year or so handling the logistics and nothing else. And then after about a year of that, a lot of that coldness and anger thought, and I think a lot of it was about processing that anger, which we really needed to process separately, which we weren't in a place we could process together. And I would say that now things are in a pretty good place. In fact, tonight is my older son's birthday. And I'm expecting to go over to her house to celebrate with her and with him and with our other kid. That doesn't feel like it will be stressful. That feels like it'll be a fun time, and maybe more fun time because we're drinking wine here together. I don't often show up lit to my kids' birthday, but there's a first time for everything.
But I think things are sort of back in a place where they are, they're companionable. And as we've discussed, and I think maybe this is a place for this podcast to go, that's both great in the moment of we can handle this, and sort of guilt-inducing in the, if we can get along this well, aren't we harming the kids by not trying to be back together again?
Lisa Bodnar:
What I remember you and I talking a lot about was the development of empathy for our ex-spouse, developing empathy for ourselves, first of all, I think in what we needed. And that it was okay for us to want to be happy, that we don't have to sacrifice everything for our children, that growing of the empathy has really, I think, correct me if I'm wrong that the two of us have both felt like our relationships with our exes have been able to become more amicable as a result.
Steve Mooney:
I think that's right. I think the development of empathy there is a... I agree that's a key feature of being able to be around one's ex, and understand why they may be feeling angry at you or they may not be feeling angry at you, but that those hurts that have happened can be forgiven, sort of through the empathy. I think a thing that I was not good at all in my marriage was asking for or offering forgiveness, that I think one of the dynamics we didn't do very well was fighting towards resolution. I think we did a lot of fighting towards expressing our discontent, but not a lot of finding the common ground and savoring the closeness that can come out of resolving a good fight. But I really wish I'd developed that skill and had that experience earlier. I don't know that this marriage would've been the right marriage for me, but if I had the ability to reach that skill, even the breakout process might have been less painful.
Lisa Bodnar:
Let's go back to talking for a minute about the relationship with our ex improving, and yet other things get harder.
Steve Mooney:
I guess the thing that we have talked about and that I'm still sort of chewing over in my mind is the tension between feeling like my ex and I can get along. I would consider going on a family vacation with her. I don't have plans to do that. And that feels like it would be really nice for the kids. And I feel some guilt over the fact that if that were true, why shouldn't we be together? Why couldn't we be providing one household so our kids didn't have to shuffle their stuff back and forth, didn't have to think about the tension of why things are different in mom's house and dad's house. And there's a ton of logistic hassles that they have to deal with that are imposed on by shuffling between two houses. And not to mention emotional hurdles of what is it like if mom and dad are in the same room? What's the tension between them? How do I have to manage that? And couldn't I just get along with her and we could return to the prior state of apparent normalcy to the kids.
And I need to remind myself that were we together all the time, the tensions and dynamics that led to the breakup in the first place would likely come right back. And there are many ways in which I am much happier now than I was when married, and my happiness makes me a better parent. And the option on the table where I'm with my ex and we're both super happy, that's not happening. And I don't think it's a failure to the kids. I would like to be able to present them a world in which that was their experience, but I'd also like to present them a world in which there is no COVID, I'd like to present them a world in which there is no police brutality. I'd like to present them lots of different worlds than the one that we live in. And I can work on some axes towards any of those things. And I don't think the one in which I and their mom live together is one that's worth working towards, I don't think that's going to happen the way that it might be nice.
Lisa Bodnar:
From when you and I started talking, one of the reasons, Steve, that I really valued you as a friend is because you were so open and vulnerable about feelings. And we were both in therapy at the time. So could we talk a little bit about therapy, especially because you're a Cis white dude.
Steve Mooney:
That's true. I am.
Lisa Bodnar:
And obviously in our world of toxic masculinity, and the patriarchy, cis white dudes are not supposed to have feelings, right?
Steve Mooney:
Right, right.
Lisa Bodnar:
So can you talk about your decision to go to therapy?
Steve Mooney:
Yeah. So I went to therapy grudgingly, because I thought it would save my marriage. In spite of, I should mention that I had a PhD at this point in time. I got my PhD in epi at Columbia, which has a very strong psych epi program and has a strong push against mental health stigma. And I would've told you that I held no stigma towards mental health services for anyone. And I still didn't want to go see a therapist, which is total bullshit. And I just want to acknowledge I was wrong. I was wrong to think that, I was wrong to think that I didn't have stigma. I'm probably still wrong to think that I don't have stigma. And we were in this marital crisis, and I was ready to do anything that I could to, I had it framed as, save my marriage. The point of this crisis was right when I was finishing my PhD. And no one knows this. So hey, shiny epi work podcast world, this is the big reveal.
Lisa Bodnar:
1,500 people.
Steve Mooney:
1,500 people are going to care a lot about this. The most petty thing I think I did in my anger about this crisis, was edit the, what do you call the thing, the dissertation, the acknowledgement.
Lisa Bodnar:
The dedication.
Steve Mooney:
The dedication, the dedication, I edited my dedication.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh God.
Steve Mooney:
Because I was so angry at her. And I didn't edit it in a way that was explicitly mean, but I believe I edited out some of the positive things that I had had in there about our relationship and her support for me.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh God dude, that's so fucking petty. I relate to it.
Steve Mooney:
Which is so petty. It's so petty.
Lisa Bodnar:
I get it. I get it.
Steve Mooney:
And I would re-edit it back, but I formatted it that way that you're supposed to format it and sent it off and now it's done forever. So, sorry, sorry, sorry my ex, sorry, world. That was a petty thing to do.
Lisa Bodnar:
No one reads your dissertation anyways, Steve, so we're fine.
Steve Mooney:
True, great. That's a good point.
Lisa Bodnar:
Or anyone's dissertation, not just yours.
Steve Mooney:
No, it's true. I found a therapist and started talking to her about my issues and what was going on. I thought we were going to spend the sessions figuring out strategies wherein I could save my marriage as I had it framed. And to my therapist's credit, we spent those sessions talking about what it meant to talk about feelings, which seemed like the dumbest, farthest from what I needed thing we could be doing. And of course I was completely wrong. Talking about feelings not only helped the process of dissolving my marriage, which is what ended up happening, of course. But also I would say to every other nerdy, uncomfortable talking about their feelings dude out there is an amazing relationship superpower you don't know that you have. Because you've been told not to talk about your feelings.
And it turns out that vulnerability is really hot. And once you recognize that it's really hot, it's like, there's a thing I can do to make myself hot that I didn't know I could do? Why have I not been doing this all this time? And so that's my pitch for therapy. I fully believe in therapy for all anyway, but to the nerdy dudes out there who don't know why they want to do this, who are 2016 me, you're going to get a superpower out of this. You should do this.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh God. I love that.
Steve Mooney:
I mean, that also comes off a little bit, you have to do it in a not sociopathic way. Do it sincerely. If you're not a sociopath to start with, you'll be fine.
Lisa Bodnar:
Right. That's right.
Steve Mooney:
But wait, but Lisa, I want to know, what brought you to therapy?
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. Well, I started seeing a therapist when I was 20. I was concerned about my relationship with the man who I ended up marrying. So we, as my first experience with a therapist, grew up in a home where my mother thought this was bananas that I would ever need to go talk to a therapist, and decided to go anyway.
Steve Mooney:
Good for you.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'm really curious as a dude who grew up in this environment where therapy was stigmatized, what do you think you were afraid of when you first started going to therapy, or before you started going?
Steve Mooney:
That's a great question. I think there were probably two or three different things. One of them that I was worried about was having any diagnosis on my medical history.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, okay.
Steve Mooney:
That maybe I would be found to have some psychopathology that I would then have to carry around and I wouldn't be eligible to fly a plane or whatever, not that I ever want to fly a plane.
Lisa Bodnar:
I was going to say, were you interested in flying planes?
Steve Mooney:
No. That was not a life goal. I think a secondary thing was a fear that there would be more short-term unresolvable things that I would learn something about myself that I didn't want to know, that I would sort learn some dark secret that I was keeping from myself and I was afraid it would come out. And that one, the first one I think is a structural thing that it should be really clear that destigmatizing mental health services sort of for everyone would remove this sort of idea that once you have a diagnosis of anxiety, you are spending your life as a broken person is total nonsense. I don't know if it's easy to solve structurally, but could be solved structurally. I think the fear of finding out something about yourself is a trickier situation, because I think it's an individualized fear, and it's a rational fear in a way, if there is something about you that you are managing now and that digging into it could uncover it, you'll have to deal with it. And that dealing with it can be hard.
I also think that with the sort of post-therapy point of view, if there is such an issue, you actually want to know about it, you will actually be better able to deal with it by using your conscious brain instead of just reacting to it. But I think I understand why that was a thing I was scared of in retrospect. And then I think the other thing was just, I thought it was going to take a lot of time, and that I wasn't going to get anything out of it, but it also felt like it's going to be emotionally exhausting where when I'm done, I'm not going to be able to write anything that night or I'm not going to be able to parent, or I'm going to be a wreck all day one day a week for the rest of the foreseeable future. How am I ever going to get this K written?
All three of my fears turned out not to be justified, although I definitely cried and was a wreck for the rest of the day more than once. It turns out to be a useful thing, because it turns out you're less of a wreck the ne next day, if you go through that or that sort of processing some of this stuff is a short-term investment in being a wreck for a long-term investment in being able to handle yourself better.
Lisa Bodnar:
Right. It can feel brutal in that moment, man.
Steve Mooney:
Yeah, absolutely. Totally.
Lisa Bodnar:
Let's talk a little bit about dating post-divorce.
Steve Mooney:
Yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Which is something that you and I have talked tons about, kind of embarking on this journey as 40-somethings. I think you and I both didn't have a lot of a dating experience before we got married.
Steve Mooney:
That is true.
Lisa Bodnar:
So entering into this new world was something I think, correct me if I'm wrong, both you and I were very excited about. Could we talk a little bit about the dating apps? We could start out if you wanted to kind of explain to people who've never been on them what the idea is, and what's kind of fucking bizarre about them.
Steve Mooney:
There is a lot that is kind of fucking bizarre about them. There is a process in which you're presented pictures of someone and maybe a few words about them if you're lucky, and you are offered to make a decision as to whether you would rather talk to this person or not. And it is fucking bizarre. And the things that I think for me are weirdest about it are one, knowing how wrong I am about snap-judging people all the time, and sort of recognizing that the snap-judgment is the norm of the world. And just having to accept that. And secondarily, trying to present a version of myself that will be snap-judged the right way by other people.
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh my God. Yes.
Steve Mooney:
So, I'm a nerd. I think we're both nerds. Maybe many listeners of this podcast are nerds. The first thing I did in dating apps was go read a bunch about how I was supposed to do this.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes.
Steve Mooney:
And you get a thousand different perspectives.
Lisa Bodnar:
That's right. What's the strategy? What is your smartest strategy?
Steve Mooney:
Exactly. Exactly. How are you going to optimally present yourself on a dating app? But the goal seems to be to get the most swipes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Right swipes.
Steve Mooney:
Sorry. The most right swipes, yes, yes.
Lisa Bodnar:
The most right swipes. Yeah.
Steve Mooney:
And it turns out that I really only want right swipes from people I actually want to talk to, which means I'm very picky about my right swipes, and that in turn makes me feel bad about myself because I feel like every left swipe is judging a person on not enough information.
Lisa Bodnar:
Interesting. I don't give a fuck about the left swipes.
Steve Mooney:
That's what you're going to do. Well, that's how you should be doing it. That is the right way to do it. Is the nope, nope, Nope. I think the part that I'm most self-hating about is the internalized classism, is that I'm always assuming that the only people I want to interact with are the ones who are wearing glasses, and writing complete sentences, and using good grammar, and a bunch of stuff that is fundamentally not about a person's character. Not about how much I would even like interacting with that person in-person necessarily, and totally classist. But I do it anyway. And when I've tried not doing that, it just makes me feel awkward and uncomfortable in ways that don't set up good conversations anyway.
Lisa Bodnar:
I'll say as a woman, it's especially hard to connect with a man that doesn't have a lot of experience with professional high-achieving women. You have to make snap-judgements, right?
Steve Mooney:
You do.
Lisa Bodnar:
And so it's a lot of like, no, no, no, no, no, nope, nope.
Steve Mooney:
Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
Let's be petty for a minute if you're willing, do you have automatic nos in profiles?
Steve Mooney:
Yes. 100% I do.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. Will you share any of them with me?
Steve Mooney:
So no words is an automatic no. If I can't see how you write, I don't care. It's this weird thing, you're developing a picture of who this person is from this small amount of information, and words are more precise than pictures. And I just need that to develop a thing. Guns are an automatic no.
Lisa Bodnar:
That's number one on my list, guns.
Steve Mooney:
Not vaccinated or anything sort of in the sort of vaccine space is an automatic no. It is extremely rare context of Seattle for people to be expressing pro-Trump sentiments. And I will say that all of my other rules are actually violated for someone who is extreme far left, if you have no words, but you're showing me that you're supporting Antifa, I'm intrigued. We might not be a good match, but tell me more about your politics. We'll have a good discussion anyway. I don't like Nazis either. Maybe we can connect on that.
Lisa Bodnar:
Steve, if an animal went to therapy, which animal's session would you want to sit in on?
Steve Mooney:
I mean, it depends a little bit on who the therapist is, but I would love to hear a crow express what's going on.
Lisa Bodnar:
Why?
Steve Mooney:
Well, there's a lot of unresolved anger issues, I think.
Lisa Bodnar:
Do you think?
Steve Mooney:
That's been my experience with crows. During crow nesting season, there are small baby crows that are probably good eagle food, and the crows don't want that eagle around.
Lisa Bodnar:
Right.
Steve Mooney:
And they are loud, and they let that eagle know and they dive bomb it. And if you've ever seen a crow crash into an eagle's wing and spiral off and then catch itself, it's beautiful and amazing and one of the great things about nature. Yeah. And also, I want to hear that crow then go to therapy and be like, I had this terrible day on Thursday. I had to dive bomb an eagle. I felt like I was going to die, but I saved my baby. That whole, what does the therapist even say? Like, "Yes. Let's acknowledge that you had some trauma, and we'll work through how you're feeling about it now."
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. And what are you going to do differently?
Steve Mooney:
And what are you going to do differently? Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
And your crow partner? What's your crow partner doing in all of this?
Steve Mooney:
Yeah, seriously. Why was it your responsibility to dive bomb?
Lisa Bodnar:
What's your favorite Indiana Jones movie?
Steve Mooney:
Last Crusade. And I want to be transparent that the part of it that bothers me the most is Indiana's relationship with his students, which I feel like is extremely uncomfortable to watch as a professional academic. It's not the cleverest writing, but the Sean Connery/Harrison Ford interactions are pure gold in that movie. The part where Sean Connery's admitting, I think for the first time that he's old also feels like a really humanizing moment for a man who's been a legendary sex symbol. And I think he's still, let's be honest. He's still sexy when he's old.
Lisa Bodnar:
He is. Yeah. I'm very embarrassed to say that Temple of Doom is my favorite.
Steve Mooney:
Temple of Doom.
Lisa Bodnar:
Dude, I know that there's so many problems with that.
Steve Mooney:
It's so problematic.
Lisa Bodnar:
It's so problematic. And I'm very embarrassed to admit it.
Steve Mooney:
It does not stand the test of time, but I'll have to rewatch it and see just how...
Lisa Bodnar:
No you shouldn't. You absolutely should not rewatch it.
Steve Mooney:
Can I rewatch it and drink for problematic as a drinking game? And then not even have to see the second half because I'll be passed out before we get halfway through.
Lisa Bodnar:
Let's watch it via Zoom together. I think that would be really fun.
Steve Mooney:
Sound's great, Netflix party.
Lisa Bodnar:
And just every time we see something we're like, oh, they shouldn't have done that. If you had to eat one thing from McDonald's, let's all just let go of the idea that because we're public health people, we don't eat at McDonald's on occasion.
Steve Mooney:
Right. I'm a public health person. This is my personal health that's happening there. I mean like structural stuff with McDonald's, and corporatization of agriculture aside, McDonald's is, anyway. Yeah. So I have to eat one thing at McDonald's.
Lisa Bodnar:
You're just fucking like, "I'm going to McDonald's." I'm going through that drive through and it's 11:00 PM. What are you going to get?
Steve Mooney:
I'm probably going to get a shake. That's what I'm most excited about the ice cream and milk combination put together.
Lisa Bodnar:
What flavor?
Steve Mooney:
Do they have chocolate?
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
Steve Mooney:
Then I'd go with chocolate.
Lisa Bodnar:
If I'm going to choose a shake, it's going to be 100% vanilla.
Steve Mooney:
Really?
Lisa Bodnar:
Just vanilla. Yes.
Steve Mooney:
You?
Lisa Bodnar:
Fuck, I love vanilla.
Steve Mooney:
You love vanilla. More power to you.
Lisa Bodnar:
Would you rather be trapped for an hour in a room full of mosquitoes or a room full of rats?
Steve Mooney:
Oh, rats. 100%.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah?
Steve Mooney:
Yeah, no, rats are, I mean, I don't want to be bit by rats, so it depends on how hungry they are...
Lisa Bodnar:
But it's a room full of rats.
Steve Mooney:
Well, I mean, can my feet go on the ground? Are they running over my feet? What are we doing?
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah, they're running over your feet.
Steve Mooney:
They're running over my feet, but the mosquitoes are feasting on me.
Lisa Bodnar:
I guess.
Steve Mooney:
So if the mosquitoes have been fed, if they've been in a room for a while and they're just hanging out, sitting on a horse corpse or something, because they've filled themselves up on all that delicious horse blood, then I'm fine in the room of mosquitoes.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. Steve, what would make you valuable in an end of the world scenario?
Steve Mooney:
Nothing. I am useless in an end of the world scenario.
Lisa Bodnar:
Come on. That is not true.
Steve Mooney:
I've always thought that my core role in any kind of scenario that required improvising would be advisor to the charismatic leader. I'm definitely never going to be the charismatic leader. Never going to do that. And I don't have any useful skills. Lighting design is not going to be a core part of the end of the world R. If we have a computer that has R on it, I can help with something. But we're in a zombie apocalypse situation, all I can do is be someone for the charismatic leader to be like, "Should we go to the left or to the right?" "Well, what are the advantages and disadvantages? Let's talk about it."
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay. I'm going to list five people, and I'd like you to rank them, please, according to who you would most want to have a drink with, to who you'd least want to have a drink with.
Steve Mooney:
Great. We're in Tinder already. This is great.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yes, that's right. But you're not allowed to say swipe left, swipe right. You got to rank them.
Steve Mooney:
Okay. Got to rank. them.
Lisa Bodnar:
All right. Here are the five people. Brittany Spears.
Steve Mooney:
Okay.
Lisa Bodnar:
Joe Rogan.
Steve Mooney:
Okay.
Lisa Bodnar:
Tucker Carlson.
Steve Mooney:
Okay.
Lisa Bodnar:
Steve Martin.
Steve Mooney:
Okay.
Lisa Bodnar:
And Dora the Explorer.
Steve Mooney:
This is easy.
Lisa Bodnar:
Let's hear it.
Steve Mooney:
Steve Martin first, because, for all the reasons.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. Steve Martin's fucking great.
Steve Mooney:
I next most want to have a drink with Britney Spears, because I want to hear her stories from her point of view.
Lisa Bodnar:
Free Britney.
Steve Mooney:
Yeah. There's so much to learn. She almost outranked Steve Martin, but Steve Martin would be so much fun that he can't be anywhere other than top. Whereas Brittany, understanding what it was like to be her is such a vicarious experience that anything she can share, I want to know.
Lisa Bodnar:
Okay.
Steve Mooney:
Next, Dora. I've never seen her show. I don't even know, but that never hit-
Lisa Bodnar:
Wait, your kids never watched Dora?
Steve Mooney:
No, they have plenty of bad habits, but we never had a TV. Or with never had a TV that was set up for regular show watching. So their other bad habits have been developed and other screen addictions have been developed with games rather than with TV.
Lisa Bodnar:
We still though at home do sing the Dora song. We sing, "Dora, Dora, Dora." We sing, "On the map, on the map." So anyway, I endorse Dora as third choice.
Steve Mooney:
Okay.
Lisa Bodnar:
Just based on what I know about her.
Steve Mooney:
I mean, she's the, I don't know anything, but I can imagine how I would be able to survive this.
Lisa Bodnar:
She's an explorer.
Steve Mooney:
She's an explorer. That's great. Yeah.
Lisa Bodnar:
There's a lot of things to ask her.
Steve Mooney:
Right. And it sounds like she's inspirational to tons of kids out there, and that's great to know everything I can. Yeah. So I guess...
Lisa Bodnar:
Oh, I'm very curious about these last two.
Steve Mooney:
This is hard.
Lisa Bodnar:
How are you going to do this?
Steve Mooney:
I guess a key question on the last two is what are the parameters and how soon can I leave this drink? Am I allowed to be like, "I had a sip, I'm out of here."
Lisa Bodnar:
No. The rule for you is you're going to have to drink half your drink, you're not going to pound it. You got to sit there.
Steve Mooney:
Dammit. That was my plan.
Lisa Bodnar:
No. You got to sit there.
Steve Mooney:
I don't want to have a drink with either of them.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah. Fair.
Steve Mooney:
And I think I would rather have a drink with Tucker Carlson, because I would like to try to be subversive. And I feel like I might have a chance because he doesn't seem like he's, he seems like he's dogmatic, but not necessarily smart.
Lisa Bodnar:
Yeah.
Steve Mooney:
Joe Rogan is also maybe dogmatic, but not all that smart, but he seems less like you might be able to manipulate him. And I don't think I have the personal skills to manipulate anybody, honestly. So I don't think it would be successful, but I might as well try as long as I have this enforced opportunity.
Lisa Bodnar:
Steve, thank you so much for doing this. I'm so glad that we were able to record one of our many, super fun, interesting conversations. It was super fun and interesting to me. I don't know what our listeners will think. Doesn't matter. It doesn't even matter.
Steve Mooney:
Thank you so much for the opportunity to be here and to talk to you, recorded or no, it's always a pleasure to talk to you, so much fun.
Lisa Bodnar:
Thank you.
He has a huge listenership, huge.
Steve Mooney:
I mean, but quantity or quality, let's be serious. Shiny happy people versus Joe Rogan, no question.
Lisa Bodnar:
I mean, come on. There's no question.
Steve Mooney:
And that's a pander at all to anybody who might happen to be listening to this.
Lisa Bodnar:
It's not.
